UDS…I mean will the Catholic church suffer financially by having most of its congregation made up of thirld-world residents as opposed to wealthy Westerners (if it happens). As to the preying on the desperate…wherever you find people at a low ebb, you’ll find the opportunists of organized religion.
Hi Rider
Well, most of its congregation is already made up of thirld-world residents as opposed to wealthy Westerners. Yes, obviously, this causes financial strains. But, as churches are not primarily commercial organisations, this is not the disaster that it might be in a different kind of organisation.
You’ll find the “opportunists of organized religion”, as you so tactfully put it, everywhere, whether or not people are at a low ebb, at least if the religion is a missionary one, as Christianity is. But I’m still not sure what connection you’re making between this and the possibility that first-world contregations will decline.
Hi UDS
The connection is that First-World congregations are better informed about, and have more media access to, all manner of disincentives from maintaining or joining the Catholic faith. These could range from the current child abuse scandals, to issues relating to modern scientific theories about creation and so forth.
The latter being a major player, IMHO, in the general decline of Christian faith over the last century or so. The uneducated are a fertile breeding colony for a religion that relies on faith more than facts.
Hi Rider
I dunno – I think it’s a mistake to assume that in an economically developed society means that you’re well-informed.
Consider your own case – you’re obviously under the impression that awareness of “modern scientific theories about creation and so forth” is a disincentive to maintaining or joining the Catholic faith. This is, of course, not the case, and hasn’t been for several hundred years but, although you live in an economically developed society, this fact has escaped your attention.
Or, slightly less cheekily, have a look at Soup_du_jour’s post higher up in this thread. Without wishing to be unfair to him, it could suggest that, in common with other posters on other threads on this topic, he’s under the impression that clerical child abuse, and the failure to deal with it in an acceptable fashion, is largely a US phenomenon. In fact it’s much more widespread than that. This is consistent with a common stereotype about US residents, which is that they are not at all well-informed about anything which happens outside the US. That stereotype may, of course, be unfair and untrue, but the fact that it exists at all suggests that it is foolish to link prosperity with being well-informed.
And, even if we could link being prosperous to being well-informed, we would still have to link being well-informed with rejecting religious belief, and this will be difficult.
The site to which I linked earlier suggests that atheism is far mor successful in Asia than anywhere else; 80% of the world’s atheists are Asians. How does this match up with your thesis?
UDS,
That 80% of the world’s Atheists are Asian is hard to believe. i have travelled to every country between Turkey and Japan, except North Korea and Bhutan, and find that this region is the most spiritual in the world. Perhaps this figure comes from Buddhism not being a religion but a philosophy.
I still maintain that knowledge has an effect on people’s feelings about religion…not least of all because they can learn about other religion. Ans on the science/knowledge being an iffluence, I guess we’ll have to agree to differ.
One thing that I am sure of though, is that whoever gets to all those unsaved souls in Africa first will be the religion they turn to. It’s just a matter of who dishes out the food parcels first.
However ill-informed the West may be, it is still better informed than those in Africa queueing up for clockwork radios.
Buddhism is shown separately in the figures. My guess - and it’s no more than that - is that the large number of Asian atheists is accounted for by China, where atheism has been officially encouraged for long enough to build up a sizable number of atheists.
I agree that knowledge does affect people’s feelings about religion; it remains to be established that improved knowledge makes people more likely to reject all religious belief. Without wishing to be offensive, I think this is an assumption on your part which you make because it suits your view of religious belief. It could perhaps be tested by attempting to correlate levels of religious adherence on a country-by-country basis with levels of educational attainment and/or prosperity. My own suggestion would be that you will find that levels of religions adherence (and the adherence to different faiths or denominations) correlate to geography, culture and history more than to prosperity or educational attainment.
And, in your comments on Africa, I think you overlook something. Few Africans convert from atheism to Christianity; they convert from other religions to Christianity. Your thesis, then, must be that poor information makes people more prone to adopt Christianity and more prone to rejct other religious beliefs.
“Your thesis, then, must be that poor information makes people more prone to adopt Christianity and more prone to rejct other religious beliefs.”
Yes it does, but purely because of the relentless surge of Christian missionaries taking advantage of the poor level of information.
“It remains to be established that improved knowledge makes people more likely to reject all religious belief. Without wishing to be offensive, I think this is an assumption on your part which you make because it suits your view of religious belief.”
It’s nothing about suiting my beliefs, its the fact that Christianity plays a very minor role in the daily life of the first world in comparison to, say, 100, or even 50 years ago. Just look at declining church attendance (which I won’t provide a cite for but I’m sure you won’t dispute). Or is this just coincidence, and not education?
No, it’s not coincidence, but I don’t see why you assume that it’s education. A couple of factors suggest to me that it may not be, or at least need to be explored before we can asssert with any degree of confidence that it is.
In many countries – such as the US and Ireland - the rise in educational standards occurred well before the decline in religious practice. In other countries such as France and the UK the reverse was the case. What, in each case, was the reason for the time lag? Or could the decline in religious practice be unconnected with education but attributable instead to other factors?
Different developed-world countries have different levels of religious practice. Does this correlate to educational standards? The United States, in particular, has a markedly higher level of religious practice than most other developed-world countries. Does is have markedly lower levels of educational attainment? Or are other factors at work here?
Educational standards and attainments have also risen in at least some less-developed countries. Has this been matched by a decline in religious practice?
Some countries have experienced a decline in religious practice without any noticable improvement in education. Why?
Within a given country, does religious belief and/or practice correlate to educational attainment? And what is the correlation? And does this vary from country to country?
“The United States, in particular, has a markedly higher level of religious practice than most other developed-world countries. Does is have markedly lower levels of educational attainment? Or are other factors at work here?”
Well, you questioned this a different way to suit your needs earlier, saying that the US is known for being less than up to speed regarding the rest of the world.
“Educational standards and attainments have also risen in at least some less-developed countries. Has this been matched by a decline in religious practice?”
I don’t know but am inclined to think so. As someone who travels frequently in underdeveloped countries, I can assure you that traditional values have certainly suffered due to things like CNN and MTV. India is a shining example.
“Within a given country, does religious belief and/or practice correlate to educational attainment? And what is the correlation? And does this vary from country to country?”
Are you just trying to tire me out here? As a whole, I dare say that spirituality, religion and traditional values are all on the decline in developing countries. For one man it’s McDonald’s, for the next it’s Catholicism.
In the last sentence I mean to say “local religion”.
I’m not trying to tire you out. I’m just trying to find out why you think that decline in religious practice is attributable to improved access to education and information, rather than to a host of other possible factors.
I could certainly see how education and information could be expected to lead to a greater diversity of religious belief as people question the accepted wisdom and develop alternatives more in tune with their own experience and perceptions. This would tend to mean a decline in the dominant religion in any society and a growth in alternatives, including not only other religions but also atheism, agnosticism and plain indifference.
But I don’t think that’s what you’re saying. You’re saying that the ill-educated and the uninformed are more prone to adopt or retain a religious belief, as opposed to a non-religious or anti-religious one, and this has nothing to do with diversity. In the hypothetical limiting case, if everybody was fully educated and fully informed, nobody would have any religious belief. I’m just trying to find out why you think that because, for the reasons I’ve already posted, it doesn’t seem to me to be clearly borne out by observation.
My suspicion, as I’ve hinted, is that, basically, you believe religious beliefs are wrong or mistaken, and that better information and education must therefore undermine them, and therefore that if they appear to be undermined at a time when information and education have improved, that must be the cause. That’s a defensible position, but it does rest on the subjective belief that religious beliefs are incorrect.
Ok, then shall we leave it at that? Otherwise we’ll be going round in circles.
cheers.