# Are we stealing oil from Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973 "2008-05-29T02:15:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/1 "2008-05-29T02:15:54Z")
I posted this video in the Pit. (I am not posting a link because the thread has turned out to be pretty worthless…meh) But in the [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELjgVq6GtPA) Dr. Dahlia Wasfi delivers a scathing oratory demanding the immediate and complete withdrawal of American forces. I agree with most of what she says. However at one point she asserts that this is a front for stealing oil. Really? This war is a clusterf\*ck of monstrous proportions, the origens of which are either pure evil or utter incompetence. But is there any evidence we have pilferred oil? So, does the “war for oil” mantra hold water today? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/2 "2008-05-29T03:02:19Z")
Who is we. The international oil companies want the oil. Not to sell it ibut t to control it. You can not control the price if you can not control the supply. Strangely Iraq, Iran and Venezuela were the wild cards in oil pricing. They are being taken care of one at a time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/3 "2008-05-29T08:26:39Z")
The current stealing makes the oil for food scandal of the past look like a tricycle compared to a rocket car: > **[Meters Cost Iraq Billions In Stolen Oil](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/meters-cost-iraq-billions-in-stolen-oil/?index=1)** > > KTVT Investigation: Lack Of Metering At Terminals Funnels Billions Into Hands Of Corrupt Officials And Insurgents > [@](#): > > Millions of dollars’ worth of oil is stolen daily in Iraq because of the absence of oil meters, a basic tool for preventing corruption, according to estimates by classified CIA and State Department reports, the Iraq Study Group Report , a former consultant to a U.S. oil company and a former State Department adviser to Iraq’s Oil Ministry. > > A six-month investigation by KTVT found the annual thefts run into the billions of dollars and help fuel insurgents, sectarian militias and corrupt officials — as well as deprive the Iraqis of much-needed money to run their struggling government. > > “I would say probably between 200,000 and 500,000 barrels a day is probably unaccounted for in Iraq,” says Mikel Morris, who worked for the State Department’s Iraq Reconstruction Management Organization (IRMO) in Baghdad. Depending on fluctuations in the price of oil, the thefts could be worth $20 million to $30 million per day. > > A Houston-area petroleum engineer, Morris says Iraq’s oil industry is wide-open to corruption because there are no working meters anywhere in the system to keep count of how many millions of barrels of oil Iraq produces or exports. “It’s like a supermarket without a cashier. There is no metering. And there’s no metering at the well heads either. There’s no metering at any of the major pipeline junctions,” he says. > > KTVT obtained photographs taken last spring during an Iraqi inspection that picture rusted, broken meters on the al Basrah Oil Terminal, known as the ABOT. > > The bulk of Iraq’s crude oil exports, which provided 94 percent of Iraq’s $28 billion budget last year, are pumped into tankers at the terminal. The ABOT’s oil meters have been inoperable since the U.S. invasion nearly four years ago, according to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, a former senior oil consultant for IRMO, statements by Iraqi officials and reports by a United Nations monitoring group. > > Morris and other sources familiar with operations at the ABOT suspect that the inoperable meters allow corrupt officials to overload tankers with oil that is then sold on the black market. Intelligence reports warn that the profits from smuggled oil and petroleum products help fuel the insurgency in Iraq, though estimates of the losses vary widely. > > A recent report to the Congressional leadership by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) also attributed the losses of Iraqi petroleum products to insurgents and underscored the absence of working meters. “According to State Department officials and reports, about 10 percent to 30 percent of refined fuels is diverted to the black market or is smuggled out of Iraq and sold for a profit. According to U.S. Embassy documents, the insurgency has been partly funded by corrupt activities within Iraq and from skimming profits from black marketers. In addition, Iraq lacks fully functioning meters to measure oil production and exports.” > [@](#): > > Jaffe, who is now the Director of Energy Studies for the Baker Institute at Rice University in Houston, says political and sectarian leaders now run Iraq’s oil industry without oversight because the hurriedly passed constitution did not clearly define how to fairly divide up the country’s mineral resources. > > As a result, corruption has become embedded in Iraq’s political system to a worse extent than during Saddam Hussein’s regime, according to Jaffe. “Without oil meters and control systems, there is built up a whole black market. There are different groups that can control that flow,” she says. “They can pay off politicians. They can pay off government officials and government inspectors. There are people inside the system now who are making personal, individual money, or their insurgency group or their political party is making money from corruption, from smuggling, from black market activities. So they are against instituting the kinds of procedures it would take to close all this down.” > [@](#): > > Last March, Morris received what he believed to be was a forged U.S. Army document from an Iraqi director general that accused specific officials in the Oil Ministry of corruption. The document alleged that Iraqi officials were creating fake invoices for construction work and the sale of petroleum products to the U.S. Army. Morris suspected that the allegations were true and recommended that the Iraqis seize the records so that the U.S. State Department could open an investigation. The next day, Morris says a fire mysteriously broke out in the Oil Ministry’s financial documents office and destroyed all of the financial documents in question. > > Morris says that the U.S. was overwhelmed by corruption in Iraq’s state-owned oil industry. “I got the impression that it was such a problem like the insurgency that no one knew the extent of it. No one really had a plan to come up with procedures or processes that deal with the problem.” I have the feeling that dealing effectively with that corruption also required even more boots on the ground and other people enforcing anti corruption efforts from the beginning, because I see that as an impossibility I do think this is yet another item that shows how incompetent the administration was with the planning. I do think that many companies or groups that are operating in Iraq are benefiting from this chaos, and it benefits them that this drags on. Making it one of the big reasons why the US is remaining in Iraq. (didn’t Halliburton had/has contracts to repair or set many of those meters?) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/4 "2008-05-29T14:00:57Z")
[Smedley Butler on Interventionism](http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm) That is what our military does. Works for nthe capitalists. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/5 "2008-05-29T14:37:53Z")
All propaganda and speculation aside, it depends on who you think the oil belongs to in the first place. Iraq’s government (arguably) doesn’t represent the Iraqi people, so if your first reaction was to say “the Iraqi people” then you can make a good argument that buying oil from the Iraqi government is the same as stealing it. Also, you can make a good argument that American corporations are coercing Iraq to sell oil under unfavorable conditions, and that the trade is unfair. That could also be a type of theft. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/6 "2008-05-29T17:57:14Z")
I looked at this and asked “If we aren’t, why not?” Look at the money that we are dumping into that country, building infrastructure and providing security while at the same time our roads and schools are crumbling, we have homeless people, our energy prices are skyrocketing - and we are not getting any of the oil? I wonder how long it would be before the Iraq government would be able to stand on its own if they were not getting all the services for nothing? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/7 "2008-05-29T18:05:24Z")
[QUOTE=ASAKMOTSD] I looked at this and asked “If we aren’t, why not?” Look at the money that we are dumping into that country, building infrastructure and providing security while at the same time our roads and schools are crumbling, we have homeless people, our energy prices are skyrocketing - and we are not getting any of the oil? I wonder how long it would be before the Iraq government would be able to stand on its own if they were not getting all the services for nothing? [/QUOTE] We aren’t dumping money into Iraq; we are just using it as an excuse to funnel money into companies like Haliburton and Blackwater while we squat on the ruins. We aren’t rebuilding them or providing security. And, we are the reason the place is a disaster in the first place. We wrecked the place, killed thousands, destroyed the government, the military, the economy, the legal system; the society in general. WE owe THEM, not the other way around, not that it’s a debt we are willing or able to pay. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/8 "2008-05-29T18:18:11Z")
Stealing oil? Is any oil even being shipped **out** of Iraq any more?! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/9 "2008-05-29T18:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=ASAKMOTSD] I looked at this and asked “If we aren’t, why not?” Look at the money that we are dumping into that country, building infrastructure and providing security while at the same time our roads and schools are crumbling, we have homeless people, our energy prices are skyrocketing - and we are not getting any of the oil? I wonder how long it would be before the Iraq government would be able to stand on its own if they were not getting all the services for nothing? [/QUOTE] You don’t walk into someone’s house, wreck their furniture, and they say you deserve part of their salary to pay for the damage you caused. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/10 "2008-05-29T18:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] You don’t walk into someone’s house, wreck their furniture, and they say you deserve part of their salary to pay for the damage you caused. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget killing and otherwise abusing family members. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/11 "2008-05-29T18:58:18Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] You don’t walk into someone’s house, wreck their furniture, and they say you deserve part of their salary to pay for the damage you caused. [/QUOTE] Well…the police do this all the time. Afaik they don’t pay for any damages they do to a house or furniture when they are performing a raid…if anyone pays for it I’m guessing mostly it’s the home owner (or their insurance). At least that seems to be the way it works from my own, um, experience. > [@](#): > > Are we stealing oil from Iraq? Who’s ‘we’? If you mean the US government then I’d say the answer is no…I’ve seen no evidence that ‘we’ are stealing oil from Iraq. I would have to say that various Iraqi groups are probably stealing oil from Iraq…and if I were to guess, I’d say that inevitably some US companies (as well as other foreign companies) are in on it to one degree or another. Corruption is rampant from what I’ve seen. > [@](#): > > So, does the “war for oil” mantra hold water today? Certainly…if you broaden the ‘mantra’ to ‘war to secure US strategic goals and resources in the ME, RE:Oil’ then it’s the same today as it was then. Mind…I don’t think the goal was worth the war myself. And I seriously doubt many people today think the cost of the war was worth the pay off we seem to be, um, getting. But if you take away all the rhetoric and bullshit and boil things down, as long as the US needs oil the ME is going to be strategically vital to us, and therefore it’s in our best interests to ensure the flow of oil is uninterrupted. Of course, it would have been in our best interests not to have an idiot like GW at the helm, trumping up and then botching an invasion, and generally screwing the poor pooch every way conceivable…but we only have ourselves to blame for electing the idiot not just once but twice. -XT ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/12 "2008-05-29T19:27:17Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Well…the police do this all the time. [/QUOTE] Well, they’re the police, and have the legal authority to do that sort of thing, assuming they have a warrant. The United States doesn’t. But even then, that’s not what ASAKMOTSD is suggesting. Let me see if I can construct an equivalent scenario: what he’s suggesting is equivalent to the police raiding your house\*, killing your son\*\*, and wrecking your stuff\*\*\*, only to discover that the drugs\*\*\*\* they claimed were in there weren’t there because, as it turns out, their informant\*\*\*\*\* was a liar who was believed only because the chief of police\*\*\*\*\*\* hated your guts and wanted an excuse to raid your house. And THEN, on top of all that, garnishing your wages to pay themselves for the trouble of having wrecked your house. - - Invading Iraq. \*\* - Killing Christ only knows how many Iraqis. \*\*\* - Wrecking the country. \*\*\*\* - WMDs. \*\*\*\*\* - Ahmed Chalabi, every neocon’s favourite spy/murderer. \*\*\*\*\*\* - George Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, Richard Perle, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/13 "2008-05-29T19:53:40Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Well, they’re the police, and have the legal authority to do that sort of thing, assuming they have a warrant. The United States doesn’t. [/QUOTE] It’s debatable if the US had or had not the ‘legal authority’ to invade Iraq. I would say that we did…by our own legal system. After all, the President had authorization from Congress, so all the boxes were checked and forms filled out in triplicate and all that. One could say that the US had a ‘warrant’…from a certain perspective. This doesn’t even get into the can of worms that was the various UN sanctions and proclamations/resolutions of course (probably because this would be shaky ground IMHO). [QUOTE=RickJay] But even then, that’s not what ASAKMOTSD is suggesting. Let me see if I can construct an equivalent scenario: what he’s suggesting is equivalent to the police raiding your house\*, killing your son\*\*, and wrecking your stuff\*\*\*, only to discover that the drugs\*\*\*\* they claimed were in there weren’t there because, as it turns out, their informant\*\*\*\*\* was a liar who was believed only because the chief of police\*\*\*\*\*\* hated your guts and wanted an excuse to raid your house. And THEN, on top of all that, garnishing your wages to pay themselves for the trouble of having wrecked your house. [/QUOTE] Well…except for the police chief hating of guts part I’ve seen the police raid a house (with a warrant), and bust up said house and hurt some of the people in the house…and all because an informant gave them faulty information (at least, when they did the raid there were no drugs on the premises). Anyway, I don’t want to hijack the thread. Even though I made the analogy I don’t think you really can compare the actions of a nation state to those of a law enforcement agency operating internally within a nation. And all of that is beside the point of if the US is or is not stealing oil from Iraq…which I’ve seen no indication that this is so thus far. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2008, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/14 "2008-05-30T22:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Who is we. The international oil companies want the oil. Not to sell it ibut t to control it. You can not control the price if you can not control the supply. Strangely Iraq, Iran and Venezuela were the wild cards in oil pricing. They are being taken care of one at a time. [/QUOTE] How many threads have you been a part of where it has been demonstrated that the oil companies are not controlling the price of oil to any great extent? Are you being deliberately obtuse or is the fact that they don’t not fit your particular slanted world view? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/15 "2008-05-31T23:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] It’s debatable if the US had or had not the ‘legal authority’ to invade Iraq. I would say that we did…by our own legal system. [/QUOTE] This is logically equivalent to me saying that I have the legal authority to rob your house and murder you, according to my personal legal system. The Constitutionality of declaring war on Iraq is a purely American matter (and I agree, contrary to what some nutballs and Bush haters have said, that the war is Constitutionally valid; the Congressional authorization for force was equivalent to a declaration of war in accordance with the Constitution.) and doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not Iraq owes the U.S. anything for the pleasure of having been attacked. > [@](#): > > After all, the President had authorization from Congress, so all the boxes were checked and forms filled out in triplicate and all that. And I could get my wife’s permission to rob your house. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/16 "2008-05-31T23:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] And I could get my wife’s permission to rob your house. [/QUOTE] Whose laws were actually broken (other than Iraq’s, I suppose)? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-stealing-oil-from-iraq/450973/17 "2008-05-31T23:50:43Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] This is logically equivalent to me saying that I have the legal authority to rob your house and murder you, according to my personal legal system. [/QUOTE] Only if you think that somehow nation states are equivalent to individuals…which is a pretty poor comparison. But ok…let’s look at your analogy seriously. WHY don’t you have the legal right to rob my house and murder me? Well, because you live in a nation state that can enforce laws. If you DID rob my house and murder me then the police (an agency/instrument of the state) would most likely hunt you down like a dog and toss you in jail. Right? First off, what gives the state the right to arrest, try and sentence you? I don’t have that equivalent right. I can’t arrest and try you for robbing someones house and murdering them. The state however DOES have that right…as we all acknowledge just by living here. So really…your analogy is poor. Sovereign states DO have rights and abilities that we as individuals don’t have. [QUOTE=RickJay] The Constitutionality of declaring war on Iraq is a purely American matter (and I agree, contrary to what some nutballs and Bush haters have said, that the war is Constitutionally valid; the Congressional authorization for force was equivalent to a declaration of war in accordance with the Constitution.) and doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not Iraq owes the U.S. anything for the pleasure of having been attacked. [/QUOTE] Well, I’m not sure where you got this part from “and doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not Iraq owes the U.S. anything for the pleasure of having been attacked”…did I say that Iraq owes the US anything for invading them? I didn’t even say that it was right for us to do so…nor that from Iraq’s perspective it didn’t suck big time. I merely said that it was legal for the US to do what it did…because the correct process laid out in the Constitution was followed. [QUOTE=RickJay] And I could get my wife’s permission to rob your house. [/QUOTE] Does your wife have the authority to authorize that…or anything? You have no legal authority to do any such actions…while the Congress DOES have the legal authority to authorize military action outside of the US. And the President DOES have the legal authority to prosecute war outside of the US. So, your analogy doesn’t work as there is no comparison between you and a sovereign nation state like the US. Just so we are clear here, I’m not saying the US SHOULD have invaded Iraq…FWIW, I think it was a major fuckup and a stupid thing to do. But that wasn’t the issue you quoted of me that I was responding to. And whether we should have gone into Iraq or not is besides the OP…as is the legality of our invasion. I’ve still not seen any indications that the US (the government) is ‘stealing oil from Iraq’. -XT