# Are we worried about the Large Hadron Collider being turned on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441 "2008-09-07T02:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![in\_hiding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c5a1d2/32.png) [@in\_hiding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/in_hiding)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/281 "2008-09-15T15:53:12Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > …while the collision occurs with the center of mass at rest with respect to the earth’s surface, nevertheless individual particles created in the collision will zoom around quite a bit, and most often at speeds higher than escape velocity… I didn’t know that - cool thing, that has to be quite the collision then. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/282 "2008-09-15T18:10:02Z")
It seems everyone is focusing on the argument that particle collisions of LHC energy levels cannot create an Earth ending black hole. This makes sense, because if similar collisions are frequently occuring in the upper atmosphere, and we have not had an Earth ending black hole, then we would not expect LHC to create one even though the LHC is not exactly the same environment. However, I think there is still a risk (albeit a small risk) because collisions away from humans is different than collisions in close proximity to humans. If undiscovered Particle X causes a prion-like change near biological organisms that has an ice-9 expansion effect, it could end all life on Earth in a different manner than all of the risks currently being discussed. I expect people will respond that this is a ridiculous and silly scenario and I might as well postulate flying spaghetti monsters. This is an expected first reaction. I wonder what the second reaction would be if people give this more thought. If the risk is explained away that no scientist in their right mind would put living organisms near the beam, consider how prevalent bacteria is. And unpredictable human motivations could produce a scenario where a rogue human somehow puts human cells in the path of the beam despite no rational reasons why someone would purposely do that. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/283 "2008-09-15T18:17:55Z")
The particles would have to migrate through steel and couple hundred of feet of rock. Meanwhile atmospheric collisions produce a shower particles that rain down through the air. Heck they’re linked to producing carbon-14. And as an aside I did a bit of a back of the envelope number crunching. For a miniblack hole with a radius twice that of an atom (3x10[sup]-15[/sup]) the mass would be 2x10[sup]12[/sup]kgs. Now the LHC is flinging protons (10[sup]-23[/sup]kgs at each other. The difference in the masses involved is remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/284 "2008-09-15T18:22:43Z")
Suppose the biological entity must be near enough to the collision to be affected before particle decay. That would make atmospheric collisions (and resultant particle showers) safe, but LHC dangerous. Further suppose that rogue humans for inscrutable reasons have put biological entities directly beside the point of collision. Even if the biological entity is not human, a small change that converts a bacteria or virus into a grey goo nanobot is just as dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/285 "2008-09-15T18:23:54Z")
Imagine what you will. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/286 "2008-09-15T18:29:26Z")
I expected a more convincing response why I am wrong. Perhaps I am on to something? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/287 "2008-09-15T18:31:02Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > If undiscovered Particle X causes a prion-like change near biological organisms that has an ice-9 expansion effect, it could end all life on Earth in a different manner than all of the risks currently being discussed. > > I expect people will respond that this is a ridiculous and silly scenario and I might as well postulate flying spaghetti monsters. This is an expected first reaction. I wonder what the second reaction would be if people give this more thought. Maybe it will. The thing is, you can say this about practically any conceivable new experimentation. Anything that is truly new, that does something we’ve never seen before poses the risk of the unknown. Beyond Here, There be Dragons. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/288 "2008-09-15T18:33:54Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I expected a more convincing response why I am wrong. Perhaps I am on to something? I wouldn’t want to make any comments on what you may or may not be on. But basically your grasp of biology is apparently in line with your grasp of physics. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/289 "2008-09-15T18:44:29Z")
Well, I agree it probably won’t happen. But I think I do understand the fears expressed by other people in this thread and where it might be coming from. The fear is that a team of scientists confidently claim the risks are justified and not to worry, they’ve already thought of everything and crunched all the numbers and there’s no risk whatsoever. Then, out of left field, a new phenomenon they hadn’t even considered (or worse yet, one they dismissed out of hand) turns out to be the one that whacks the human race. Cue man in white lab coat shrugging shoulders and saying “Sowwy”. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/290 "2008-09-15T18:46:54Z")
Ok, to expand on that. First off your positing that somehow a person injects enough bacteria/thingies into a vacuum chamber that mimics the environment at 1000km about sea level without any detection. Then you posit that the collision produces an unknown particle that has sufficient ability to impact the DNA of the biological thingy. This follows that the damage manages to induce sufficient change to the thingy that it becomes a grey-goo organism that devours everything. You do know we’re not actually in a Michael Crichton book right? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/291 "2008-09-15T18:52:17Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Then, out of left field, a new phenomenon they hadn’t even considered (or worse yet, one they dismissed out of hand) turns out to be the one that whacks the human race. In other words, a dragon gets us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/292 "2008-09-15T18:52:22Z")
You have not said anything to deny this possibility. But this is just one possibility that \*could \*happen when dealing with unknowns. So, therefore there is a modified version Pascal’s wager at work. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/293 "2008-09-15T18:56:03Z")
You need to prove to me that the course you describe is possible. I’m not the one proposing the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/294 "2008-09-15T19:00:44Z")
I don’t need to prove it’s possible. People who claim the LHC is perfectly safe need to prove such risks are impossible. As for dragons, that’s a great fallback. Seriously. Haha, dragons! I get it. Silly fears of the unknown! I think the Pascal’s wager idea is still valid, though. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/295 "2008-09-15T19:04:09Z")
You claim it’s dangerous via a specific mechanism (though it reads like magic). Lay out how it would work. Unless you seriously believe that someone can refute the imaginary actions of an imaginary entity on reality. And no claiming a religious text as a cite. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/296 "2008-09-15T19:19:54Z")
I thought I did. Basically, a new particle produced by the LHC strikes a biological entity and produces a new [prion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion) that is hazardous to human life. Or, it creates [grey goo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo). But my point is that unknown particles cause unknown effects which are potentially very dangerous even if scientists claim to be certain the particles must be harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/297 "2008-09-15T19:24:04Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I don’t need to prove it’s possible. People who claim the LHC is perfectly safe need to prove such risks are impossible. > > As for dragons, that’s a great fallback. Seriously. Haha, dragons! I get it. Silly fears of the unknown! I think the Pascal’s wager idea is still valid, though. No it’s not, Pascal’s wager postulates no reward for the supposed negative side, in this case, doing it. ## Pascals wager: God |||||| No God ## Infinite|||||No Rewards||Reward ## No|||||||||Infinite Negatives||||Negatives ## Here: Not on|||On No||||||||Much deeper reward|||Physics Knowledge Not|||||||||Slim\* chance of destroyed||Destruction In this case it’s risk vs reward, not Pascal’s wager which presupposes no risk for one choice and no reward for the other. \*Negligent, really ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/298 "2008-09-15T19:27:52Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > As for dragons, that’s a great fallback. Seriously. Haha, dragons! I get it. Silly fears of the unknown! I think the Pascal’s wager idea is still valid, though. It’s not just that it’s silly, it’s that dragons are a code word for an unknown danger. Every revolutionary experiment has the risk of the unknown. From Columbus crossing the Atlantic, to visiting the bottom of the sea, tracking the source of the Nile, to landing on the Moon, there is a risk that something nobody ever thought of, or believed possible would come back and bite us in the ass. If you don’t take that risk, you may as well give up on the idea of advancing the human race. We got where we are by slaying those dragons, not giving in to the fear of them. I’d argue against the prion or grey goo hypothesis, but there’s no point because an imaginative mind could come up with a hundred more hypothesis with just as much scientific basis as those (not very much at all) that we’d have to tackle one by one. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/299 "2008-09-15T19:30:29Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > I thought I did. > > Basically, a new particle produced by the LHC What particle and how? > [@The\_Controvert](#): > > ]strikes a biological entity and produces a new [prion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion) that is hazardous to human life. How does this particle interact with matter? Is this how prions are currently created? > [@Controvert](#): > > Or, it creates [grey goo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo). How does a biological entity become a grey-goo entity You have a number of impossibilities that must simultaneously occur. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/300 "2008-09-15T19:35:57Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > ## Here: Not on|||On No||||||||Much deeper reward|||Physics Knowledge > > Not|||||||||Slim\* chance of > destroyed||Destruction > > In this case it’s risk vs reward, not Pascal’s wager which presupposes no risk for one choice and no reward for the other. > > \*Negligent, really I think if you stop to think about it, you can probably come up with a few upsides to not being destroyed or ceasing to exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441.md?page=16)