# Are we worried about the Large Hadron Collider being turned on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441 "2008-09-07T02:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/321 "2008-09-15T23:19:37Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I suspect that the cost and importance of the collider is acting as a lure, drawing people into being upset and concerned in order to show their own importance. Not that anyone is planning that out, just that it’s a temptation that’s hard to leave alone. > > There are many other things that are riskier, but there are few things that most people hear about that are as costly, complicated, and important as the collider. Not to mention the largeness of the words “destroying the entire world.” > > Yes, the catalytic converter has as much of a chance of mutating a humanity-killing virus. But the fact is that worrying about catalytic converters just isn’t sexy. They’re not in the news. They didn’t require a multi-national team of physicists. They’re not as attractive. Fretting over them will not make anyone seem important. I’ve got one in my garage, for gods’ sake. > > No amount of pointing out the safety of the collider, or discussion of the relative safety of more mundane things, is going to overcome the attractiveness of fretting over this orgasmically big, costly, esoteric, important thing. The physicists and others did the work. They created this important thing. But if I can say they shouldn’t be allowed to do it, then I’m more important than they are. Well, if we’re gonna delve into the reasons for doomsday prophecies, I believe a major one is good, old ego – none of us can truly conceive of a world without ourselves; our personal world is defined by our perception, and thus ceases to exist without us. The rational response is to simply accept that we’re not all that important to the world, that it indeed will keep on turning regardless. However, some people seem unable to reach that conclusion; instead, to them, it appears that their end ought to coincide with the end of the world, since a world without them seems inconceivable (this reasoning being, of course, more of an implicit nature – no sane person will ever state that the world can’t exist without them, but nevertheless, a few will at least suspect it). Thus, belief in a doomsday scenario becomes quite simply a defence mechanism designed to not have to face one’s own insignificance, and simultaneously a means to elevate oneself above one’s peers, which I still believe to be one of the major driving forces of human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/322 "2008-09-15T23:31:02Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Yeah, cause this isn’t a false dichotomy at all. Cause it’s always human race dies versus completely paralyze scientific progress. Maybe we wait a few years and perform the experiment more safely, or perhaps away from humans. Or figure out a different way to get the same answers. It’s not a false dichotomy, because your particular argument can be applied to every single revolutionary experiment ever performed in the history of science. Every single blessed one could have mutated prions or opened a hole into another universe, or tapped into “extra” dimensions, or created mutagenic goo, with the same exact probability that the LHC has. Since they all turned out to be safe, you don’t think about them, it’s only that this one is NEW and not already done a hundred million times (except in the atmosphere, but we’ll ignore those) without killing you. In terms of worries, you should worry more about your bathtub, because it’s about a hundred billion times more likely to kill you than the LHC. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/323 "2008-09-16T01:04:11Z")
Isn’t the top three dangers something like bathtubs, cars, and spouses? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/324 "2008-09-16T02:01:36Z")
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m probably wrong and my worries are overblown. But it appears I’m not the only person who was concerned. The title of this thread is whether folks are worried. Guess what? Some folks are. On the other side, we have people who are apparently not a bit worried. The only question I have for those people: have you ever been wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/325 "2008-09-16T02:06:51Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > On the other side, we have people who are apparently not a bit worried. The only question I have for those people: have you ever been wrong? Sure. The mere fact that I’m capable of error doesn’t cause me to start worrying in any significant way about things I would not otherwise worry about. I have confidence that combining milk and cookies will not cause an explosion, but, yeah, I’ve been wrong before, and I _could_ be wrong about this… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/326 "2008-09-16T03:10:51Z")
Do you guys even realize how intellectually dishonest it is to try to equate LHC with combining milk and cookies? Or catalytic converters. Do you really believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/327 "2008-09-16T03:12:38Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Do you guys even realize how intellectually dishonest it is to try to equate LHC with combining milk and cookies? Or catalytic converters. Do you really believe that? If your mere “Well, you _could_ be wrong…” arguments had merit, they’d presumably apply elsewhere. If you are reluctant to apply the same arguments elsewhere, then there is reason to suspect that those aren’t actually the arguments which are leading you to harbor the fears you do, even if you may consciously think they are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/328 "2008-09-16T03:28:22Z")
Well, the natural followup is to ask what was the most serious consequence you’ve had to being wrong. If your response is up there with extermination of all human life, then I’d agree you have relevant experience making these choices. Otherwise, your flippant tone reminds me of a certain simian Commander in Chief’s habit of cracking wise when his decisions cause people to suffer. (heck of a job, brownie?) ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/329 "2008-09-16T03:34:37Z")
**Controvert** , why don’t you tell us what you think the LHC is being built for? And really try to answer seriously. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/330 "2008-09-16T03:42:52Z")
Are you unable to read the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_hadron_collider) article? It seems to do a great job describing the purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/331 "2008-09-16T03:44:22Z")
My greatest fear is that the collider will slow down time during an election year. ---
**Author:** ![ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/332 "2008-09-16T04:02:37Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Do you guys even realize how intellectually dishonest it is to try to equate LHC with combining milk and cookies? Or catalytic converters. Do you really believe that? You’re the one dodging the more relevant question about other forms of research, and you’re calling other people dishonest? Again: why not eliminate the (much more likely to be significantly dangerous) avenue of medical research? What physical research of any sort is actually safe to perform? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/333 "2008-09-16T04:07:39Z")
I thought you’d impress the hell out of us by actually using your own words. I’m so terribly shocked you didn’t. :rolleyes: You want the gist? To extend the validity of the Standard Model into the TeV region. The Standard Model combines the electroweak and QCD into a unified theoretical structure. The LHC is not a leap into the unknown, it’s an evolution. For example the Standard Model was tested at CERN through the LEP. They found the following values for W and Z bosons. Mass of W boson --\> Experimental 80.398±0.025 GeV Mass of W boson --\> Theoretical 80.3900±0.0180 GeV Mass of Z boson --\> Experimental 91.1876±0.0021 GeV Mass of Z boson --\> Theoretical 91.1874±0.0021 GeV Now a GeV is roughly 1.6x10[sup]-10[/sup] joules or 1.7x10[sup]-27[/sup] kg. Now take a look again at the agreement between theoretical and experimental measurements. The research team was able to account for tidal effects and the additional mass of water in the lake above the collider due to spring run off as well. Now I doubt very much you even want to be reassured. My guess is you’re enjoying your Quixotic tilting at those know it all scientists. Fair enough – just realize your wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/334 "2008-09-16T05:42:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My greatest fear is that the collider will slow down time during an election year. Now _that_ is worth getting a puckered butthole over. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/335 "2008-09-16T05:44:56Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > Well, the natural followup is to ask what was the most serious consequence you’ve had to being wrong. If your response is up there with extermination of all human life, then I’d agree you have relevant experience making these choices. If I was disastrously wrong about the fact that the combination of milk and cookies is perfectly innocuous and will not cause the extermination of all human life, then, well, there would have been the extermination of all human life. The potential consequences of being wrong are the same, just as are the credences assigned to that vanishingly unlikely possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/336 "2008-09-16T08:04:34Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > If I was disastrously wrong about the fact that the combination of milk and cookies is perfectly innocuous and will not cause the extermination of all human life, then, well, there would have been the extermination of all human life. The potential consequences of being wrong are the same, just as are the credences assigned to that vanishingly unlikely possibility. Actually, since there have been far more particle collisions than milk-and-cookie combinations up to this point, it’d be more reasonable to worry about the latter, since experimental constraints on the likelihood of a cataclysmic milk-and-cookie combination are far lower than for particle collisions. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/337 "2008-09-16T10:56:57Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > On the other side, we have people who are apparently not a bit worried. The only question I have for those people: have you ever been wrong? Wrong about what? The only risks that anyone has reasonably postulated have been considered and dismissed by the scientific community as impossible, given our current understanding of how the universe works. The only risk that is left is risk of the unknown. You can’t eliminate that risk if you’re doing truly original experimentation. Of course, in the case of the LHC, the team is replicating events that naturally occur in our atmosphere, in a way that allows us to put sensitive detectors right next to the event. Since the naturally occurring events don’t destroy the Earth or end all Life, the unknown is made that much more fanciful. You can’t possibly expect science to stop an experiment because it would be dangerous if the universe operated differently than we believe it does. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/338 "2008-09-16T11:26:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Wrong about what? The only risks that anyone has reasonably postulated have been considered and dismissed by the scientific community as impossible, given our current understanding of how the universe works. Isn’t it sort of accepted as a given that our understanding of how the universe works is something that changes over time? What if the LHC experiment proves our understanding of the universe wrong? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/339 "2008-09-16T11:38:51Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Isn’t it sort of accepted as a given that our understanding of how the universe works is something that changes over time? > > What if the LHC experiment proves our understanding of the universe wrong? Then we change our theories to fit the evidence and re-assess whether further experimentation is warranted. How science works. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2008, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/340 "2008-09-16T11:53:33Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Isn’t it sort of accepted as a given that our understanding of how the universe works is something that changes over time? > > What if the LHC experiment proves our understanding of the universe wrong? Again - [The Relativity of Wrong](http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441.md?page=18)