# Are we worried about the Large Hadron Collider being turned on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441 "2008-09-07T02:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/361 "2008-09-22T05:42:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > How do we even know for sure that it would play out like that, instantaneously? How do we know that the end of the world in this scenario would be in the blink of an eye and not an agonizing destructive event that took at least long enough for people to suffer? Oh, for Og’s sake! Do you _really_ think that a submicroscopic blackhole would take a long time to kill you? If it _did_, then, quite clearly, so much of modern physics is wrong that firing up the LHC is about as risky as you walking out the front door. > [@](#): > > Anyway, the “impossible” cannot, by definition, happen. So that phrase doesn’t really make sense. Neither does your fear of the LHC, but you’ve got it anyway. > [@](#): > > Either something can happen, or it can’t. In this case, it seems that it can happen. And has been pointed out over and over again in this thread, **nobody** with the necessary background in physics gives even the _remotest_ bit of credibility to that possibility. [In fact, one expert in the field has described anyone worried about it as a “twat.”](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/05/scilhc105.xml) > [@](#): > > The Large Hadron Collider near Geneva, where particles will begin to circulate around its 17 mile circumference tunnel next week, will recreate energies not seen since the universe was very young, when particles smash together at near the speed of light. > > Such is the angst that the American Nobel prize winning physicist Frank Wilczek of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has even had death threats, said Prof Brian Cox of Manchester University, adding: “Anyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the world is a t—.” > > The head of public relations, James Gillies, says he gets tearful phone calls, pleading for the £4.5 billion machine to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/362 "2008-09-22T05:51:37Z")
And Preston Tucker was sure that his car was going to be the vehicle of the future and if someone were to tell him that it was going to be a complete flop and that maybe two percent of all Americans would even know that it ever existed in 50 years, he probably would have called them a twat too. It’s really easy to brusquely dismiss someone’s misgivings or concerns away when you’re certain that you’re right. Unfortunately, people are often certain that they’re right, when in fact they are wrong. “It’s not loaded!” Famous last words. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/363 "2008-09-22T05:51:46Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s not the same. Those other things are at least to some degree within my control. Fifty-car pile-up? I think I drive well enough to be able to avoid an accident, and in any case I live in a small city and I don’t drive on the highway, so a pile up is not going to happen. I don’t live in a place that has earthquakes capable of harming anyone. I can shoot a wild animal before it kills me. See what I mean? There’s a level of security that I can have, being secure in the knowledge that even if these things DID happen somehow, at least I can deal with them. At least I have a chance to survive. Sure, you have a chance of surviving those things. There’s also a chance that the LHC won’t destroy the world. Do you think your chance of being caught unaware by a wild animal, DUIing maniac, an airplane crashing into your house, whatever, is significantly smaller than the chance that the LHC will work out perfectly harmlessly? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/364 "2008-09-22T05:52:27Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yeah, the world doesn’t revolve around me. That doesn’t mean that I’m terribly happy with the idea of my life being taken from me by other people, when there are still so many things that I want to do. You could sitting in your house and an airplane could crash into it killing you instantly. A far more likely scenario, btw. You wouldn’t see it coming, you’d never expect it, or have any control over the situation. Does this upset you enough to put up an early warning radar system? You are complaining about something that has such a little chance, yeah, maybe not zero, of killing you when there are so many other things that are far more likely to kill you out there. Most of them are outside your control and knowledge, too. I don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/365 "2008-09-22T05:52:46Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It’s not the same. Those other things are at least to some degree within my control. Fifty-car pile-up? I think I drive well enough to be able to avoid an accident, and in any case I live in a small city and I don’t drive on the highway, so a pile up is not going to happen. I don’t live in a place that has earthquakes capable of harming anyone. I can shoot a wild animal before it kills me. See what I mean? There’s a level of security that I can have, being secure in the knowledge that even if these things DID happen somehow, at least I can deal with them. At least I have a chance to survive. Utterly false assumptions on your part, in multiple ways. First of all, how well _you_ drive is meaningless (and not merely because most people think they’re better drivers than they really are), but because quite often people are involved in accidents in which they have no control over. You stop at a red light, the guy behind you _doesn’t_, all your driving skills don’t mean shit in that scenerio. What happens if you don’t have your gun on you when you spot the wild animal? What about a plane that goes out of control and crashes into your house while you’re asleep? > [@](#): > > If the world instantaneously disappears - caused by guys in Switzerland, thousands and thousands of miles away who I can’t do anything about at all - it will be completely out of my grasp and I will be utterly powerless to do anything about it. So is the fact that nations like Russia and China have nuclear weapons. Do you lie awake nights worrying about that? Or do you “explain it away” by telling yourself that you _don’t_ live in a target zone? 'Cause if you think that a total nuclear war wouldn’t ruin your day even if you _weren’t_ at one of the “Ground Zeros” you’re mistaken. Completely and utterly mistaken. > [@](#): > > Yeah, the world doesn’t revolve around me. That doesn’t mean that I’m terribly happy with the idea of my life being taken from me by other people, when there are still so many things that I want to do. Then you’d better start **doing** them, because the fact of the matter is: You can lose your life at any moment, through no fault of your own, and with no warning, no matter who you are or where you live or what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/366 "2008-09-22T06:07:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > And Preston Tucker was sure that his car was going to be the vehicle of the future and if someone were to tell him that it was going to be a complete flop and that maybe two percent of all Americans would even know that it ever existed in 50 years, he probably would have called them a twat too. Lets see, how many cars made today _don’t_ have seatbelts? How many of them _don’t_ have fuel injection? How many of them _don’t_ have disc brakes on at least some of the wheels? Are there cars made today that _do_ having headlights that turn with the wheel? There might _not_ be a car built today with the name “Tucker” (if you don’t count [this one](http://www.robidaconcepts.com/page/page/1916736.htm), that is), but by Og, Tucker’s _ideas_ are alive and well, and in cars today. _That_, I’m sure even Preston Tucker would agree, is the _important_ thing. Sounds to me like Tucker’s car _was_ the “car of the future.” (Oh, and I’m _sure_ Tucker would have admitted the possiblity of his car not being built in the future. He spent a good portion of his time trying to keep his company alive, and he firmly believed that the other car companies were trying to force him out of business. [Cite.](http://www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/showroom/1948/letter.html)) > [@](#): > > It’s really easy to brusquely dismiss someone’s misgivings or concerns away when you’re certain that you’re right. Unfortunately, people are often certain that they’re right, when in fact they are wrong. Most people are wankers without advanced degrees. The guys who designed and built the LHC _do_ have advanced degrees, and families to worry about. How many of the “LHC is going to destroy the world!” crowd can say that? > [@](#): > > “It’s not loaded!” Famous last words. 99% of the time spoken by someone who _doesn’t_ know what the fuck they’re doing to begin with. The stereotype of said individual is **not** some nebbish guy with a pocket protector, but of someone who’s family tree resembles a telephone pole. Why do you suppose that is? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/367 "2008-09-22T06:16:12Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Most people are wankers without advanced degrees. The guys who designed and built the LHC _do_ have advanced degrees, and families to worry about. How many of the “LHC is going to destroy the world!” crowd can say that? > > 99% of the time spoken by someone who _doesn’t_ know what the fuck they’re doing to begin with. The stereotype of said individual is **not** some nebbish guy with a pocket protector, but of someone who’s family tree resembles a telephone pole. Why do you suppose that is? “Here, take this thalidomide. Whoops! Your kid doesn’t have any arms or legs! Sorry!” - A bunch of people who almost certainly had advanced degrees. Why do we act like scientists can’t make mistakes? This attitude of “they don’t have advanced degrees, and so they are twats because they’re concerned about this” is the absolute height of ivory-tower, smug, pretentious elitism. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/368 "2008-09-22T06:22:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > “Here, take this thalidomide. Whoops! Your kid doesn’t have any arms or legs! Sorry!” - A bunch of people who almost certainly had advanced degrees. > > Why do we act like scientists can’t make mistakes? They can make mistakes, sure. Do you correspondingly refrain from taking any medicine? Why assume that the default probability of a world-destroying mistake is significant enough to worry about, at this stage when there is no evidence that such mistake has been made? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/369 "2008-09-22T06:42:45Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > “Here, take this thalidomide. Whoops! Your kid doesn’t have any arms or legs! Sorry!” - A bunch of people who almost certainly had advanced degrees. > > Why do we act like scientists can’t make mistakes? The problem with thalidomide, however, is _way_ more complicated than you make it out to be. First of all, there are **two** forms of the drug, one is dangerous to pregnant mothers, the other _isn’t_. What no one realized at the time, is that we had no way to control which form was being made. The second is that trials of the drug done in England, well before it was ever done in the US, revealed the problem, however, because the US _didn’t_ recognize the validity of those studies, it was tried out in the US with disasterous results. Since then, we’ve learned a _lot_ about how to do drug studies, and science in general. In order to get the billions of dollars needed to build the LHC, the scientists involved had to spend _years_ crunching all sorts of numbers (and then _recrunching_ as technology and our understanding of physics improved) to justify the expense . The actual time frame is _decades_ as the LHC is an outgrowth of the canceled SSC that the US looked at building in the 1990s (thus the proposals for _that_ would have started being written back in the late 70s/early80s). Had the SSC _not_ been canceled (for reasons of _politics_), it would have been three times as powerful as the LHC. > [@](#): > > This attitude of “they don’t have advanced degrees, and so they are twats because they’re concerned about this” is the absolute height of ivory-tower, smug, pretentious elitism. By your logic, someone with a broken arm who decides to go to the ER, rather than a faith healer, is an elistist. I should also point out that raising this issue _here_ an expecting to get an answer from the majority that “it might not be a good idea” (since you _clearly_ won’t listen to the volume of people saying there’s nothing to worry about, I can only conclude that you’re seeking affirmation of your fears) is, to put it gently, a little less than “bright.” I think you’d be _much_ happier if you hung out [here](http://rense.com/) instead of the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/370 "2008-09-22T06:58:58Z")
I am NOT going to wade through seven MORE pages of “Nuh uh”/“Uh huh.” Find a better way to argue over this stuff or I am shutting down this nonsense. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/371 "2008-09-22T07:02:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am NOT going to wade through seven MORE pages of “Nuh uh”/“Uh huh.” > > Find a better way to argue over this stuff or I am shutting down this nonsense. > [/Modding] Help! Help! I’m being repressed! Come see the repression inherent in the system! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/372 "2008-09-22T09:22:12Z")
Quoting myself is probably not the best form, but if there’s still some genuine interest in debating the LHC’s supposed dangers, here, again, are some arguments against mBH formation: > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > [ul][li]First of all, according to General Relativity, there won’t be any black holes created. Period. Black hole creation, in itself, will be an exciting insight into possible new physics beyond GR.[/li][li]Black holes could be created if there exist large extra dimensions; this means, effectively, that gravity is stronger on short distances than we observe it in everyday life.[/li][li]The same theories that predict the formation of black holes also predict their (near instantaneous) decay due to Hawking radiation; indeed, Hawking radiation stands on far firmer theoretical grounds than the prediction of mBHs. [/li][li]Even if (and that’s a very unphysical assumption) Hawking radiation were somehow invalid in the theories, i.e. if we just kind of cross it out and say ‘it doesn’t happen’ without any more reasons, mBHs ought to still undergo decay merely because the creation process must also work in reverse as a destruction process (via CPT symmetry).[/li][li]If, to go further into speculation, mBHs are created and are stable/metastable, in the overwhelming majority of the scenarios, there still wouldn’t be any danger, since for most space-time geometries, accretion times (i.e. the time the black hole needs to gobble up the earth) are larger than the solar lifetime, i.e. we’d be fried before we’d be eaten up.[/li][li]In those very specific (and unlikely) cases where space-time has the right dimensionality for mBHs with a high enough accretion rate to devour the earth in an appreciable amount of time (still possibly on the order of hundreds of years), the black hole creation mechanism would need to include a mechanism that prevents charged black holes to form, since these would be stopped within the earth after their creation due to cosmic ray collisions and would have long since gobbled up the earth. [/li][li]To restate the level of (utterly baseless!) speculation we’re at now: (1) if black holes could be created, that (2) don’t decay via Hawking radiation, (3) violate CPT symmetry, (4) have a high enough accretion rate to destroy the earth before the sun does, while (5) being only created in neutral variants by some unknown mechanism, we’d still (6) need an explanation why we observe neutron stars and white dwarfs of ages far greater than would be possible if those mBHs existed in this way.[/li][li]And, for one last time, a proton-proton collision is a proton-proton collision regardless of where it occurs.[/li][li]So, the universe has tried this 10[sup]31[/sup] times without managing to destroy itself, or any part of it. Why should we be that astronomically more lucky? Basically, any other end of the world scenario you care to conceive of has a higher probability than that. [/ul][/li] > So, what, in the above reasoning, seems unclear to you? What don’t you accept? Or, if none of the two, why do you still believe in the possibility of global cataclysm? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/373 "2008-09-22T14:19:53Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Also, the fact that they can’t even make the machine work properly doesn’t exactly inspire my trust that these people know what they’re doing. The system that failed has **nothing** to do with particle physics. This argument is as illogical as deciding you don’t trust them because the lead scientist’s car got a flat tyre. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Why do we act like scientists can’t make mistakes? Scientists can make mistakes, but only within certain limits. The LHC isn’t a bloody Infinite Improbability Drive - even if it was a black box (which it isn’t), that _still_ wouldn’t mean that we couldn’t make accurate predictions about what it _wouldn’t_ do. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/374 "2008-09-22T16:50:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Scientists can make mistakes, but only within certain limits. The LHC isn’t a bloody Infinite Improbability Drive - even if it was a black box (which it isn’t), that _still_ wouldn’t mean that we couldn’t make accurate predictions about what it _wouldn’t_ do. a) If Eoin Colfer’s new book in the _Hitchhiker’s Guide_ series is that terrible, CERN creating an Infinite Improbability Drive would appease everyone’s wrath. Just saying. b) **Argent** , I seem to recall in an earlier thread you saying you’d pay money for someone to sabotage the thing so it wouldn’t work. Now you’re complaining when it doesn’t work? c) I want to print out **Half Man** ’s list and carry it with me when the irrational worry gets a bit much. 🙂 d) I am still waiting for someone to make the inevitable “SHOOP DA WHOOP” joke when they test the collider. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/375 "2008-09-22T22:42:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If the world instantaneously disappears - caused by guys in Switzerland, thousands and thousands of miles away who I can’t do anything about at all - it will be completely out of my grasp and I will be utterly powerless to do anything about it. > . As has been explained many many times in this thread alone, a microscopic black hole is as likely to form from natural processes as be created by the people in Switzerland, so I supposed you should get used to being terribly, terribly panicked by the idea for the rest of your life whether the LHC comes back online in a couple of months or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441.md?page=18)