# Are we worried about the Large Hadron Collider being turned on? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441 "2008-09-07T02:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/101 "2008-09-09T04:37:23Z")
I had the golden opportunity to attend a short seminar this morning given by Professor J. Chapman, retired, who worked with the U of M group on the ATLAS detector at CERN. Someone in the audience asked him the black hole question. He treated it seriously, but explained that it was not a concern. Any microscopic black hole created would be too small to endanger anything, too small to survive. It would radiate off energy at a rate faster than it could absorb anything. This is the biggest scientific endeavor ever embarked upon and completed. The difference between this collider and earlier ones is the LHC can accelerate particles to nearer the speed of light, and have them collide at higher energies than any existing facility, which should make it possible to create particles that haven’t been found before, including the Higgs boson. The point of the collider as others have said is to provide a consistent supply of collisions to record and study. Think of it like farming. If you want a blackberry pie, you can traipse out into the woods hunting here and there, risk poison ivy and hope you can find enough blackberries to fill the pan, or you can plant blackberry bushes and have them conveniently at hand where you want them, and as many as you need. They’re the same fruit, just more reliable and easier to collect. Being afraid of the LHC’s capabilities is like being afraid that if you plant blackberries, you might accidentally grow a blackberry so large it will drown everyone in the country in indelible purple juice. It’s just not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/102 "2008-09-09T05:16:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > See what I’m getting at here? I have yet to hear a good, detailed answer to **clairobscur** ’s question. The closest we got is, “I’m not a high level physicist so I don’t know the answer.” What kind of answer would satisfy you? Simple answers have been given over and over in this thread but you just keep brushing them off. If you really think the only answer is “you’re too ignorant to understand” then maybe you should go and educate yourself so it wouldn’t be way beyond you. You won’t learn the intricacies of the experiment without years of schooling, but like anything, a bit of reading will give you the general idea. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/103 "2008-09-09T10:15:25Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I have yet to hear a good, detailed answer to **clairobscur** ’s question. What question, exactly, do you think is still unanswered? And, if you don’t mind me asking, what exactly is your reasoning behind not accepting the ‘it happens all the time and doesn’t hurt’-argument? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/104 "2008-09-09T11:18:27Z")
Moving thread which has turned into an “Is This The End Of The World??” thread from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/105 "2008-09-09T11:49:28Z")
\< relevant aside \>Is there any truth to the anecdote that scientists at the first atomic bomb testing, were betting on whether it would ignite the atmosphere? I wonder what crazy bets these guys are having? \< / relevant aside\> ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/106 "2008-09-09T11:52:20Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > \< relevant aside \>Is there any truth to the anecdote that scientists at the first atomic bomb testing, were betting on whether it would ignite the atmosphere? I wonder what crazy bets these guys are having? \< / relevant aside\> IIRC, they had a cover story planned if the explosion happened to take out most of the western US. ---
**Author:** ![ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/107 "2008-09-09T11:55:46Z")
I’d like to point out to people who seem to be handwaving away the benefits of these experiments to “regular folk” that I have two relatives who are alive today partly due to technology that comes directly from particle accelerator research (and in fact directly relies on smaller accelerators to even function). Medical science often benefits early from advances in physics and chemistry. I guess admitting this makes it harder to paint scientific researchers in such a nefarious light, though, so it doesn’t surprise me that it’s so often ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/108 "2008-09-09T12:16:51Z")
> [@ed](#): > > I’d like to point out to people who seem to be handwaving away the benefits of these experiments to “regular folk” that I have two relatives who are alive today partly due to technology that comes directly from particle accelerator research (and in fact directly relies on smaller accelerators to even function). > > Medical science often benefits early from advances in physics and chemistry. I guess admitting this makes it harder to paint scientific researchers in such a nefarious light, though, so it doesn’t surprise me that it’s so often ignored. And things like Microwave ovens and CRT televisions use similar techniques to do what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/109 "2008-09-09T12:18:23Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > …or the idea of having sex with two women at the same time. You say this like it would be a bad thing:dubious:…😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/110 "2008-09-09T12:34:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > No, I don’t realize. > > As I understand it there are already several gigantic colliders like this one, and those haven’t found whatever the hell they’re hoping to find. The LHC won’t find it either, and then they’ll have to build a Giant Hadron Collider, and a Gigantic Hadron Collider, and an Enormous Hadron Collider. You’re example here is like saying there is no need to make any engine more powerful than the one in a lawnmower, since you can use one to travel. The LHC is the biggest and most “up to date” one possible to make today. It will come closer to creating the explosions and energy “beams” that occur in nature than any before it (though still not as powerful as what appears in nature already). It has the best detecting equipment possible at this time, to glean as much information as possible from the collisions. To sum up: 1- High Energy Physics revolutionizes science. The first wave brought us things like the Xray, the second wave brought us the CAT scan and it’s bretheren. What’s next? We don’t know yet, but the LHC will be a key part in finding out. 2- Particle collisions happen all the time. That’s what a suntan is… UV radiation colliding with your skin, destroying particles and creating heat. There are multitudes of other examples, if you just look for them for half a second. 3- There is a non-zero chance of some sort of “End of the World” happening due to the LHC. There is also a non-zero chance of my genes spontaneously deciding to mutate me into a chimpanzee. The odds are probably similar to both of those. 4- Knowledge is a good thing. I’m hoping you don’t disagree with this one. 5- What we hope to learn: what are the fundamental building blocks of the Universe? What is the actual nature of Gravity? Why is there the fundamental disconnect between Newtonian Physics and Quantum Physics? Extrapolated data from answers to these could lead to anything from new imaging technology to Gravity manipulation and other world changing tech. Now then, I have attempted to answer your questions clearly, in laymans terms (being a layman myself) without handwaving and saying “A Wizard will take care of it”. Do you have any other actual concerns or fears? Or are you just arguing to get a rise out of people, and refusing to actually debate or discuss the issue? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/111 "2008-09-09T13:07:16Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > What question, exactly, do you think is still unanswered? My question about whether or not people dismissing out of hand \*\* Argent Towers \*\*‘s concerns or making fun of him had a clear idea of what the supposed risks were, and how the risks had been assessed. Until now, you’re the only one who responded (positively). My point would be that it’s easy to point the finger and laugh, but \*\* Argent Towers \*\* points at a very real problem, which is the control of scientists’ endeavours in an age where our capacities are becoming potentially threatening at a very wide scale. And this issue should be taken seriously. It doesn’t seem to be, at least not by most of the posters in this thread. For instance you (IIRC) points at the fact that whatever organization is questioning the safety of the LHC did the same in the past with others particle accelerators, as if it were a bad thing. I think that it _should_ be questioned. And I also think that a claim of “this might destroy the planet” _should_ have people feel concerned and demanding a very close scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/112 "2008-09-09T13:15:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > \< relevant aside \>Is there any truth to the anecdote that scientists at the first atomic bomb testing, were betting on whether it would ignite the atmosphere? I wonder what crazy bets these guys are having? \< / relevant aside\> Well yes, Edward Teller did come up with that possibility (as a consequence of a hypothetical nitrogen nuclei fusion reaction), but it was quickly shown to be impossible to happen. Nevertheless, Fermi did propose a bet regarding ‘whether or not the bomb would ignite the atmosphere, and if so, whether it would merely destroy New Mexico or destroy the world’ in the final hours before the launch, more meant as a way to break the tension than an honest offer, I gather. I guess you acquire kind of a strange sense of humour if you’re building and testing a device capable of destroying whole cities at once. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/113 "2008-09-09T13:33:15Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > My point would be that it’s easy to point the finger and laugh, but \*\* Argent Towers \*\* points at a very real problem, which is the control of scientists’ endeavours in an age where our capacities are becoming potentially threatening at a very wide scale. And this issue should be taken seriously. It doesn’t seem to be, at least not by most of the posters in this thread. The problem here, though, is that this assessment can only be done by experts in the field, and in fact _is_ done constantly. If one is truly worried, one is free to acquire a through understanding of the field, to at least base one’s worries not merely on ignorance, as it’s done in this (and similar) thread(s). [QUOTE=clairobscur] For instance you (IIRC) points at the fact that whatever organization is questioning the safety of the LHC did the same in the past with others particle accelerators, as if it were a bad thing. I think that it _should_ be questioned. And I also think that a claim of “this might destroy the planet” _should_ have people feel concerned and demanding a very close scrutiny. [/QUOTE] But it only ever was a misunderstood pop science claim in the first place, and it has been addressed and shown to be bunkum. Yet time and again, the issue is being dragged up, forcing yet another re-stating of the same old, tired rebuttals. This isn’t scientists just pushing forward without thought for life or humanity, just for the sake of their own ephemeral pursuits; that’s not how science works, it’s a mere late Saturday night made for TV special movie trope playing on the underlying Luddism of society at large who fear that which they don’t understand to create a more convincing madly cackling villain. It’s an extremely carefully designed, planned and controlled experiment, carried out with the greatest caution by some of the most brilliant minds of our time to hopefully answer (or at least, shed some light at) some of the remaining fundamental questions in physics. There won’t be any maniacal laughing when it’s turned on, there won’t be any ‘because I CAN’ justifications, there won’t be any playing god. I know the story loses its pulp appeal if you realise that, but it opens the way to the understanding of something far more profound, and more importantly, real – genuine scientific pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/114 "2008-09-09T16:23:58Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > \ > 1- High Energy Physics revolutionizes science. The first wave brought us things like the Xray, the second wave brought us the CAT scan and it’s bretheren. What’s next? We don’t know yet, but the LHC will be a key part in finding out.\ I’m hoping for transporter technology. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/115 "2008-09-09T17:32:48Z")
> [@drm](#): > > Some of the smartest people on the planet are working on this, you think maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt? No. The smartest people on the planet were working on the first Large Hadron Collider built 14 billion years ago. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/116 "2008-09-09T17:53:46Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > Seriously, this is pretty much the biggest, most important thing going on in science at the moment, imho at least. Do you realize how big the concepts we’re dealing with here are? Dear Cecil, What’s the big deal with this Large Hadron Collider? I understand we’re not going to get sucked into a black hole, and by the time you read this we’ll know for sure. What I do understand is we’re going to create a particle called the Higgs Bosom or something, and apparently this is the biggest thing ever. I guess that’s somehow fun for all those lonely physicists, but what’s in it for me? Flying cars? My love and adulation always, Lev ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/117 "2008-09-09T23:57:30Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > My question about whether or not people dismissing out of hand \*\* Argent Towers \*\*'s concerns or making fun of him had a clear idea of what the supposed risks were, and how the risks had been assessed. Until now, you’re the only one who responded (positively). If the [other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=444689%5B/url) threads [started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=428308) by [Argent Towers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=466881) on the [topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=481509) haven’t convinced him to do anything other than panic, I’m not sure anything short of Stephen Hawking having a face-to-face Q&A session with him could manage. I suspect that’s one reason why there’s more ‘making fun of’ and less calm, full, yet understandable explanations. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/118 "2008-09-10T02:24:13Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Nuclear energy exists in nature (the Sun) but we don’t have nuclear explosions occurring all the time all over the planet, do we? It takes human effort to create nuclear explosions, even though the energies required to create them can occur naturally. That’s a bad argument. > > All I’m hearing in this thread is more smug superiority, like always, and no good answer to **clairobscur** ’s perfectly reasonable question, just “sorry, no can do, bub.” Well, we actually have had naturally occurring nuclear reactions on earth. behold the [oklo fossil reactor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor) ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/119 "2008-09-10T02:27:45Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well yes, Edward Teller did come up with that possibility (as a consequence of a hypothetical nitrogen nuclei fusion reaction), but it was quickly shown to be impossible to happen. Nevertheless, Fermi did propose a bet regarding ‘whether or not the bomb would ignite the atmosphere, and if so, whether it would merely destroy New Mexico or destroy the world’ in the final hours before the launch, more meant as a way to break the tension than an honest offer, I gather. I guess you acquire kind of a strange sense of humour if you’re building and testing a device capable of destroying whole cities at once. I’ve seen a recording of an army officer back in the 50s trying to assuage peoples fears about nuclear testing. He assured people that it would not blow a hole in the bottom of the ocean, causing all the water to leak out. My favorite though, was his assurance that the bomb “would not destroy gravity”.😛 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-worried-about-the-large-hadron-collider-being-turned-on/462441/120 "2008-09-10T05:03:05Z")
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