# Are we/you in the kingdom of the blind? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517 "2011-12-08T16:01:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/81 "2011-12-09T14:42:33Z")
Here’s some memetic cross-pollination > [@Are there stray cats in Fiji?? Need answer fast!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-stray-cats-in-fiji-need-answer-fast/605622/2): > > Yes, there are. There are stray and feral domestic cats everywhere humans can live comfortably. > And no, that thread does not explain anything. I stopped participating in sophomoric bullsessions about thirty years ago, when I was a sophomore. > > Cite: Fijian ground frogs are threatened by feral cats: > [http://www.naturefiji.org/endspecies.php?info=Fijian%20Ground%20Frog](http://www.naturefiji.org/endspecies.php?info=Fijian%20Ground%20Frog) > [@Are there stray cats in Fiji?? Need answer fast!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-stray-cats-in-fiji-need-answer-fast/605622/3): > > Thanks for the cat’s answer, that’s all I needed 😛 > > The whole thread is a recursive joke, by the way. It’s not so supposed to explain anything except how to make better recursive jokes. Don’t be so offended :o ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/82 "2011-12-09T14:44:53Z")
Getting back to Truman vs Neo I don’t think there’s a major dilemma or paradox. In the case where you truly cannot be aware of certain things, then they effectively have no consequence. If there can be any consequence then axiomatically there must be a method by which you can gain that awareness. In either case the obvious ideal algorithm is simply “live in the moment”. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/83 "2011-12-09T14:47:48Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > OK then, I think you might be quite right. Maybe we don’t have to do anything at all. > > Maybe the cats then? They’ll like it, I’m sure. And I’ll have fun too 😛 I guess the point is, we should have preferences and do things, but not be overly psychologically attached / emotionally addicted to the outcome if we intend to avoid suffering. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/84 "2011-12-09T14:47:50Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Getting back to Truman vs Neo I don’t think there’s a major dilemma or paradox. In the case where you truly cannot be aware of certain things, then they effectively have no consequence. If there can be any consequence then axiomatically there must be a method by which you can gain that awareness. In either case the obvious ideal algorithm is simply “live in the moment”. Right, right, but what if you want to help others do the same? Isn’t helping others part of our nature? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/85 "2011-12-09T14:59:53Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > Basically, the “perfect” algorithm of life is Zen Buddhism. We should all strive to become perfect Zen masters laughing at the universe and joking with each other about it because it’s so amusing. And not because we get it, but’s because we’re sure we don’t. This is the absolute maximization of human utility over the space of memetic evolution and transmission over some future horizon which will subsequently lead to the singularity over a larger future horizon. (But by then, I doubt we’ll really be human.) Yeah…this sounds like stoner bullshit to me. I mean I’m educated enough to know what these words all mean, but they don’t make any actual sense in the configuration you arranged them in. > [@hoenikker](#): > > And if you tell me I’m wrong about it because people won’t do any work, I’ll tell you you’re wrong. Because I’m very very amused about this whole thing and am currently working on a very very ambitious idea because I want to; I’m just not sure if the best place to do it is grad school or Fiji. And I’m not sure if the best way to do it (over the appropriate horizon ;)) is by writing computer programs or by playing recursive jokes on cats. I’m rather indifferent to both right now. This sounds like a philosophy for people who don’t need to figure out where their next meal is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/86 "2011-12-09T15:03:23Z")
I ask myself am I a participant in someones experiment, perhaps a thesis ? Am I an intellectual pawn in a random game of choice ? Is this world the real world, or am I being subjected to excessive verbiage as an audience for some ego massaging b/s from some entity, perhaps a pseudo intellectual, who would like to consider themselves above the norm, but can’t ask a lucid question, let alone offer up an intelligent, or for that matter, intelligible argument ? Is their a god ? Who shot J.R.? Why do pubs have car parks ? Why is there only one Monopolies Comission ? If a box of notepads is on a truck driving at speed, does it still qualify as stationary ? Whats it all about ? Alfie ? Why are we here? Why am I here ? Why did I read this thread ? Truman, Truman, Truman. Rhubarb, Rhubarb, Rhubarb. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/87 "2011-12-09T15:07:20Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah…this sounds like stoner bullshit to me. I mean I’m educated enough to know what these words all mean, but they don’t make any actual sense in the configuration you arranged them in. Maybe I speak a different language than you. (Hint: define symbols and language in Computer Science terms, then in Chomskyian terms, compare and contrast the similarities, then answer the question of what a language is and how you learn it…) Wikipedia’s English might be less orthogonal to your English than mine is. So try the following: [famous guy other smart people suspect might have been smart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin). Does that help? :o ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/88 "2011-12-09T15:09:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > This sounds like a philosophy for people who don’t need to figure out where their next meal is coming from. Are you too dim to understand that it’s a joke? Guess what, that was a joke too. Thanks for playing 😛 ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/89 "2011-12-09T15:10:56Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I ask myself am I a participant in someones experiment, perhaps a thesis ? > > Am I an intellectual pawn in a random game of choice ? And indeed there will be time To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?” Time to turn back and descend the stair, With a bald spot in the middle of my hair— (They will say: “How his hair is growing thin!”) My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin, My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin— (They will say: “But how his arms and legs are thin!”) Do I dare Disturb the universe? In a minute there is time For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/90 "2011-12-09T15:14:04Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > This sounds like a philosophy for people who don’t need to figure out where their next meal is coming from. The people are playing the game to optimize the distribution of dollars, the dollars are playing a game to optimize the people to optimize the distribution of dollars better, over and over again, and the dollars are getting smarter than the people. (Did they already cross over? What really happened during the financial crisis :o What was it about? Complicated financial products? Automated trading? What what what? :p) ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/91 "2011-12-09T15:27:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > This sounds like a philosophy for people who don’t need to figure out where their next meal is coming from. Ok. > [@hoenikker](#): > > Everyone got it? I’m getting kind of tired on this, so I hope at least **Kozmik** picks this up and rolls with it. \*\*msmith537 \*\*should consider people who do need to figure out where their next meal is coming from: people in the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar who eat Tasty Wheat. People like Morpheus, Dozer, Trinity, Neo, and, of course, Mouse. Then consider people who don’t need to figure out where their next meal is coming from: people like Cypher. > [@hoenikker](#): > > Are you too dim to understand that it’s a joke? Guess what, that was a joke too. Thanks for playing 😛 It was a meta-joke. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/92 "2011-12-09T15:32:04Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It was a meta-joke. 😛 You’re still making this quite quite difficult for me. Difficult, but amusing. ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/93 "2011-12-09T15:40:50Z")
**Kozmik** Do you want to make a bet? Right now, are there more Trumans reading this thread too scared to pipe up and be embarrassed, or more Neos reading this thread not saying anything for our own good? I think it’s an interesting bet, and I pray to “God” (I’ll just say God, is that ok? Don’t need to worry about the details yet) that “He” will let us find the answer to that question as best he can. But then again, I’m not sure he’ll ever be sure either, except provisionally, because how to do count the conscious entities? So let’s make it a small bet and have it bounce back and forth forever (we’ll just remember the exchange rate at every discontinuity between currencies) as we figure it out. Let’s make it one dollar, just like in Trading places. I can be Eddie Murphy, and you can by Dan Aykroyd. Sound good? I’ll make my bet: more **Neos** ⭕o:o:o ---
**Author:** ![hoenikker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoenikker/32/7296_2.png) [@hoenikker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoenikker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/94 "2011-12-09T15:51:23Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Rhubarb. The color of quarks. Think about it :o ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/95 "2011-12-09T16:07:10Z")
> [@hoenikker](#): > > **Kozmik** Do you want to make a bet? Right now, are there more Trumans reading this thread too scared to pipe up and be embarrassed, or more Neos reading this thread not saying anything for our own good? > > I think it’s an interesting bet, and I pray to “God” (I’ll just say God, is that ok? Don’t need to worry about the details yet) that “He” will let us find the answer to that question as best he can. > > But then again, I’m not sure he’ll ever be sure either, except provisionally, because how to do count the conscious entities? So let’s make it a small bet and have it bounce back and forth forever (we’ll just remember the exchange rate at every discontinuity between currencies) as we figure it out. > > Let’s make it one dollar, just like in Trading places. I can be Eddie Murphy, and you can by Dan Aykroyd. Sound good? I’ll make my bet: more **Neos** ⭕o:o:o So Neos are lurkers? Does this make God **tomndebb**? > [@jackdavinci](#): > > But everyone already has Buddha nature. Does everyone know it? > [@jackdavinci](#): > > they just aren’t in a constant state of awareness about it. Why not? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > You, on the other hand, are wrong. If \*\*hoenikker \*\*is wrong then does that mean **[msmith537](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14547435&postcount=85)** is right? > [@hoenikker](#): > > You might be the wisest man on this forum. I’ll settle for being the wisest man in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/96 "2011-12-09T16:08:47Z")
This thread is the kind of nonsense which gives philosophy a bad name. No claim or argument is being made, but we’re supposed to respond with “Wow, that’s really deep!” or “Makes you think…” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/97 "2011-12-09T16:15:08Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Getting back to Truman vs Neo I don’t think there’s a major dilemma or paradox. In the case where you truly cannot be aware of certain things, then they effectively have no consequence. If there can be any consequence then axiomatically there must be a method by which you can gain that awareness. In either case the obvious ideal algorithm is simply “live in the moment”. Wow, that’s really deep! :rolleyes: Makes you think… ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/98 "2011-12-09T17:09:53Z")
Reported for promoting illegal drug use. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/99 "2011-12-09T17:12:22Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Reported for promoting illegal drug use. I beg to differ. If ever there was a thread that showed how drugs can ruin your mind, this one is it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517/100 "2011-12-09T17:29:21Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Wow, that’s really deep! :rolleyes: > > Makes you think… Hehe In fairness I actually think **jackdavinci** was getting at a serious point, just in somewhat trippy language (unlike the rest of the thread, which is in trippy language and gets at nothing). When discussing the nature of reality, two points are often made: 1. We cannot be sure that what we see is real (in the sense that we might be living in the matrix or whatever). 2. Therefore, it’s irrational to behave as though everything around us is real. But point 2 doesn’t follow; it _does_ make sense to behave as though what is around us is real, without being sure that that is the case. I think that’s what **jackdavinci** was saying and I agree with that. (I can give a full argument for why I hold that position, but I just want to give a short response for now :)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-you-in-the-kingdom-of-the-blind/605517.md?page=6)