# Are Western values inherently superior to Eastern values **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742 "2005-04-04T23:35:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/21 "2005-04-06T03:33:40Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > With the exception of several eastern countries like Japan and Korea that have adopted western values, I doubt you’ll see much change in attitudes towards the role of women in society, or tolerance at least for open gays. The role of women in China has certainly changed a lot over the past 60 years or so. That is due at least in part to Communism, but the OP seems to be treating Communism as “Eastern” rather than “Western”. China has also made significant advances in tolerance of homosexuality in the past decade. It’s not like San Francisco or anything, but a woman I know from Shanghai mentioned to me a few weeks ago that about 20 years ago one of her father’s coworkers was “outed” and then…taken away. He was not seen again. This no longer happens (although the police do sometimes go after homosexuals on pretty flimsy grounds), and she said that homosexuals in China now “have their own clubs and everything”. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/22 "2005-04-06T04:15:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite true. However, the Western societies are the only ones in history that have ever **produced** the ideas that church and state should be separate, religious freedom protected as a matter of principle rather than expediency, that tolerance and freedom are important values in and of themselves, etc. All other societies that now espouse those ideas learned them from the West. You won’t find such thngs defended or even mentioned in Confucius, the Koran or Hadith, or the Rig-Veda. I’m not enough of a scholar to call you on this, but I’m skeptical that some or all of these ideas are unique to modern Western nations. For example, from the edicts of King Ashoka, an Indian Buddhist king of the third century B.C: “All religions should reside everywhere, for all of them desire self-control and purity of heart.” Rock Edict Nb7 (S. Dhammika) ``` "Contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions." Rock Edict Nb12 (S. Dhammika) ``` ---
**Author:** ![baronsabato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed655f/32.png) [@baronsabato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baronsabato)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/23 "2005-04-06T07:17:29Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The role of women in China has certainly changed a lot over the past 60 years or so. That is due at least in part to Communism, but the OP seems to be treating Communism as “Eastern” rather than “Western”. Why _is_ the OP treating communism as “inherently Eastern” anyway? If we consider Russian society as being Western, then wouldn’t communism therefore be a Western construct? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/24 "2005-04-06T13:14:31Z")
> [@baronsabato](#): > > Why _is_ the OP treating communism as “inherently Eastern” anyway? If we consider Russian society as being Western, then wouldn’t communism therefore be a Western construct? It appears to me that the OP is using “Western values” to mean “modern American values”, so of course the USSR can’t be Western then! He (and **emacknight** ) certainly seems to be lumping a wide variety of cultures and regions under the “Eastern” label. I don’t see by what standard one can lump together China AND Indian AND Russia AND the various smaller states under the cultural influence of those countries AND any nearby independent states…unless one is just trying to sort the world into “countries like the US” and “countries not like the US”. I’d be more comfortable with the OP if it just came out and said “Are American values the best in the world?” ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/25 "2005-04-06T17:03:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite true. However, the Western societies are the only ones in history that have ever **produced** the ideas that church and state should be separate, religious freedom protected as a matter of principle rather than expediency, that tolerance and freedom are important values in and of themselves, etc. All other societies that now espouse those ideas learned them from the West. You won’t find such thngs defended or even mentioned in Confucius, the Koran or Hadith, or the Rig-Veda. Surah 109, Al-Kafirun (the Unbelievers): In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful: Say : O you unbelievers: I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which you worship. Not will you worship that which I worship. Unto you your Way, and unto me mine. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/26 "2005-04-06T17:28:47Z")
Perhaps I should clarify: Are the values of the modern West (in this case, nations such as the USA, Canada, and Western Europe) inherently superior to the values of the modern East (the Muslim lands, India, Japan, China, etc.)? As a generalization, the values of the modern West tend to be individualistic and liberal whereas the values of the modern East tend to be communitarian and conservative. Thus, the question may be reformulated to be: “Are the values of individualism inherently superior to the values of communitarianism?” or, “Is individualism inherently superior to communitarianism?” WRS ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/27 "2005-04-06T19:58:58Z")
I still question the base assumptions in your question. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/28 "2005-04-06T20:54:14Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > As a generalization, the values of the modern West tend to be individualistic and liberal whereas the values of the modern East tend to be communitarian and conservative. IMO, liberal (in the sense of rationalistic, innovative and experimental) values are better than conservative (traditionalistic and/or religious) values, but communitarian values are better than individualistic values. So there’s no easy answer. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/29 "2005-04-06T20:57:58Z")
> [@Lilairen](#): > > Surah 109, Al-Kafirun (the Unbelievers): > > In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful: > > Say : O you unbelievers: > I worship not that which you worship, > Nor will you worship that which I worship. > And I will not worship that which you worship. > Not will you worship that which I worship. > Unto you your Way, and unto me mine. No. Considering that the Muslims in the early years always charged a special tax to Jews and Christians living under their rule and utterly suppressed all non-Abrahamic forms of worship, and considering that they have always based their law and government on the Koran, I can’t read this passage as a policy statement of religious toleration or church-state separation – merely as an acknowledgement that there are Muslims and there are infidels and their ways have nothing in common. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/30 "2005-04-06T23:17:19Z")
This is absolutely impossible to answer. There just isn’t a homogenised set of “Eastern” values even in the very broadest sense. Even between Islamic countries, for example, cultural, legal and social systems are so diverse that you cannot make generalisations that form a polarity against “Western” values. What I would say is that Western political systems do not always “fit” developing countries, due to issues of tribalism, lack of education, vast rural poor, undeveloped communications infrastructures, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/31 "2005-04-06T23:27:16Z")
Let me see if I understand what the Op is asking. Is it, “Are American Values better than the values that are in the news a lot now, the values of countries with a lot of sand?” If that is the case, I think I will oversimplify things by saying that freedom is great unless survival is harsh, in which case you need to forbid your kids from opening the airlock, wandering into the woods, or going out into the dessert alone." In other words, each has it’s benefits, but I know which one I want to live with. I also need to note, that in the case of things like female circumcision, I feel free to butt in and make judgments. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/32 "2005-04-07T16:29:36Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > things like female circumcision African. Not Eastern as in Oriental/Far Eastern, or as in Middle Eastern, or as in South Asian, or as in South East Asian. African. Every time. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/33 "2005-04-07T16:34:50Z")
well, I was oversimplifying, and I did use the general term, “countires with lots of sand.”, not eastern ---
**Author:** ![Extrovertive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Extrovertive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Extrovertive)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/34 "2005-04-09T07:50:47Z")
The ancient Chinese had culture complacency, which did not make feel superior nor inferior to other cultures. If you use the Chinese as one of the many examples of Eastern values, then such a question of which values (Western or Eastern) is better is invalid, much less meaningless. Such a question of cultural superiority would not even linger the minds of the ancient Chinese. If you define Western is strictly on individualism and Eastern as communal (both on opposite spectrum), then it’s even more difficult to determine as ultimate freedom incorparates a bit of both. Western may placed its source of truth in the sciences but science only answer “What?” type of questions while eastern may placed its values in mystical understanding answering the “Why?” type of questions. The OP question is much akin to is intelligent superior to wisdom, vice versa? A question like that is difficult to answer without a more deeper definition of the two. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742/35 "2005-04-09T08:27:34Z")
I think that when some Americans refer to “Western vs. Eastern” they actually mean “Us vs. Them”. With the “Us” being the USA, while Europe and the rest of the world is considered part of “Them”. (“You’re either with us, or against us.”) Americans were never really very good at geography anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-western-values-inherently-superior-to-eastern-values/297742.md?page=1)