# Are White People in Denial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164 "2007-07-17T18:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/241 "2007-07-25T13:20:26Z")
I think what **raindog** is saying, if I may be so bold, is that if a black kid and a white kid both go to school every day, do well on the SATs, get good grades, head to college, continue to work hard and score well on tests, both do well on the MCATs and head to medical school (where they continue to work hard), then both can end up as successful doctors. There was nothing directly about their race that kept them from getting into college, medical school or a hospital anymore. But, I’m guessing that **raindog** would also agree that a history of institutional racism in this country where there certainly was something about the black kid’s grandfather’s race that kept him out of medical school (as well as individual racism) has set the stage such that it is less likely that that hypothetical black kid than that hypothetical white kid has family members or friends who went to medical school. Or even went to college. Based on that history of racism, the socioeconomics are set that it is less likely that he could afford SAT prep courses or MCAT prep courses that would put him in a position to perform as well on those exams. There is nothing in the institutions (college, medical school, hospital) stopping that kid from succeeding, but that is not denying that it is probably something more of an accomplishment if he does succeed because he (statistically) likely has more hurdles to jump to get there. May I be so bold? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/242 "2007-07-25T13:20:57Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Then why did you ask it of **the raindog**? [/quote] Because he suggested that blacks have an advantage over whites when it comes to sports. Do try to keep up. > [@](#): > > Then I am sure you agree that **you with the face** is incorrect to drag in a single aspect - physicality - of the possible filters and supports into the discussion. Except the fact that I didn’t mention physicality. I asked do you think blacks have an inherent athletic advantage over whites since there are disproportionately more black athletes. Still awaiting your response, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/243 "2007-07-25T13:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Hopefully later today we’ll lay siege to another American Institution in search of Institutional Racism… [/QUOTE] Keep dancing. Looking at individual “institutions” and claiming to find no racism is a deliberate distortion of the meaning of the phrase “institutional racism” and if you persist in that line of avoidance, I will have to conclude that you are being deliberately dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/244 "2007-07-25T13:26:08Z")
Hey **raindog** , might you please answer my question here, please? > [@the raindog](#): > > We can also share with them that black athletes can expect a more than fair chance of becoming a professional athlete vis a vis their white counterparts, and that the statistics bear this out; that blacks are overrepresented in the field of professional sports. [QUOTE=you with the face] So do we have your permission to tell these kids that blacks have a “less than fair” chance of becoming successful politicians, engineers, doctors, and lawyers when compared with their white counterparts, since the stats “bear this out”? [/QUOTE] Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/245 "2007-07-25T13:32:48Z")
[QUOTE=Fiveyearlurker] I think what **raindog** is saying, if I may be so bold, is that if a black kid and a white kid both go to school every day, do well on the SATs, get good grades, head to college, continue to work hard and score well on tests, both do well on the MCATs and head to medical school (where they continue to work hard), then both can end up as successful doctors. There was nothing directly about their race that kept them from getting into college, medical school or a hospital anymore. But, I’m guessing that **raindog** would also agree that a history of institutional racism in this country where there certainly was something about the black kid’s grandfather’s race that kept him out of medical school (as well as individual racism) has set the stage such that it is less likely that that hypothetical black kid than that hypothetical white kid has family members or friends who went to medical school. Or even went to college. Based on that history of racism, the socioeconomics are set that it is less likely that he could afford SAT prep courses or MCAT prep courses that would put him in a position to perform as well on those exams. There is nothing in the institutions (college, medical school, hospital) stopping that kid from succeeding, but that is not denying that it is probably something more of an accomplishment if he does succeed because he (statistically) likely has more hurdles to jump to get there. May I be so bold? [/QUOTE] Actually, while your second paragraph addresses some of the issues regarding institutional racism, **the raindog** ’s actual posts suggest that he would not agree. **the raindog** appears to be explicitly denying that they exist or have relevance. It seems that in his world, racism can be only a personal belief held by a limited number of persons, directly aimed at one perceived race or another, and it has ceased, in his opinion, to have any effect on society in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/246 "2007-07-25T13:41:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Actually, while your second paragraph addresses some of the issues regarding institutional racism, **the raindog** ’s actual posts suggest that he would not agree. **the raindog** appears to be explicitly denying that they exist or have relevance. It seems that in his world, racism can be only a personal belief held by a limited number of persons, directly aimed at one perceived race or another, and it has ceased, in his opinion, to have any effect on society in the U.S. [/QUOTE] Exactly. In his mind, acknowledging the impact of history on present-day conditions is equivalent to living in the past and wallowing in victimization. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/247 "2007-07-25T13:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Looking at individual “institutions” and claiming to find no racism is a deliberate distortion of the meaning of the phrase “institutional racism” and if you persist in that line of avoidance, I will have to conclude that you are being deliberately dishonest. [/QUOTE] I lost track - is today the day when debates should not be made personal, or the day when anyone who comes up with a post you disagree with is being deliberately dishonest? > [@you with the face](#): > > Because he suggested that blacks have an advantage over whites when it comes to sports. Ah, I see. Do you believe that whites have any advantage over blacks in fields like medicine? Be sure to note that the word “inherent”, “inborn”, and “genetic”, do not appear in the question. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/248 "2007-07-25T13:43:32Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Do you believe that whites have any advantage over blacks in fields like medicine? Be sure to note that the word “inherent”, “inborn”, and “genetic”, do not appear in the question. [/QUOTE] I already answered this question: No. Why can’t you answer mine? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/249 "2007-07-25T14:07:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I lost track - is today the day when debates should not be made personal, or the day when anyone who comes up with a post you disagree with is being deliberately dishonest? **the raindog** has specifically refused to address my actual points while going on at great length about other issues, dancing around crowing about his “victory.” In his most recent post he explicitly said that he was going to continue haring off after his deliberate distortion of the phrase “institutional racsim.” I am simply giving him notice that if he is going to try to shape the discussion by setting his own imaginary definitions while ignoring actual responses, I am going to dismiss his dishonest tactics. Now, I know that you enjoy taking umbrage at all the “personal” slurs around here, shielding yourself from similar charges by simply talking in vague generalities about “the usual suspects” while coyly never actually naming the posters against whom you are hurling your condemnations, but other posters are allowed to express themselves more honestly regarding the direction a debate is moving. If **the raindog** would care to address actual points I have made, he is free to do so. if you would like to engage in the discussion rather than performing your more typical sniping, you are free to do so. If the discussion is going to deteriorate into **the raindog** spending five more pages simply denying any evidence while he “examines” one aspect of labor after another and ignoring any evidence that would contradict his views, while you take cryptic potshots without any serious participation in the thread, then I will simply point out how he is being dishonest and leave the thread to him while you snipe at other posters from the sidelines. ---
**Author:** ![Sumisu\_919](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Sumisu\_919](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumisu_919)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/250 "2007-07-25T14:23:03Z")
[http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4576](http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4576) > [@](#): > > Open Arms, Closed Doors and Racism > > By VIVIAN S. TOY > > BLACKS and Hispanics in Nassau County are often discriminated against when searching for apartments to rent, while whites generally receive much better treatment from real estate agents, according to a housing study released earlier this month by a local community group. > > The report compiled by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now - an advocacy group for low-income families known by its acronym Acorn - found that while white testers sent into real estate agencies were told there were apartments available 93 percent of the time, black and Hispanic testers were told the same thing only 53 percent of the time. And while nearly a third of the minority testers were steered to different, usually less affluent areas, only 2 percent of the white testers were referred elsewhere. > > “This kind of thing is done under the cover of darkness and people don’t talk about it even though they know it goes on,” said Bertha Lewis, executive director of New York Acorn. “We’re never looking for people to treat us badly, but now we have documented it and we have the data to prove it.” [http://www.huduser.org/publications/hsgfin/hds.html](http://www.huduser.org/publications/hsgfin/hds.html) > [@](#): > > While generally down since 1989, housing discrimination still exists at unacceptable levels. The greatest share of discrimination for Hispanic and African American home seekers can still be attributed to being told units are unavailable when they are available to non-Hispanic whites and being shown and told about less units than a comparable non-minority. Although discrimination is down on most measures for African American and Hispanic homebuyers, there are worrisome upward trends of discrimination in the areas of geographic steering for African Americans and, relative to non-Hispanic whites, the amount of help agents provide to Hispanics with obtaining financing. On the rental side, Hispanics are more likely in 2000 than in 1989 to be quoted a higher rent than their white counterpart for the same unit. [http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0304/Jan26\_04/14.shtml](http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0304/Jan26_04/14.shtml) > [@](#): > > “These findings show that Black Americans today continue to face substantial levels of racism and discrimination that may well turn out to have direct effects on physical and mental health,” says Jackson, senior research scientist at the Institute for Social Research. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/251 "2007-07-25T14:34:36Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] I’m pleased to report to my fellow Dopers that our investigation into The Arts, Sports and Entertainment industries revealed no structural, systemic, or institutional racism. Not that we didn’t try, mind you. The findings: 1. The most compelling evidence is that the major sports aren’t fairly represented by minorities among head coaches. That went both uncited, and unconfirmed. (I think that was **Hippy Hollow** ) [/QUOTE] Oh, clever. You’ve not answered questions about racist posters now going on about six times. That is uncited and unconfirmed as well. You could be an adult about it and admit that this was a hyperbolic, baseless claim, or simply say, “Here are the posters that are racist.” Either way. If you have an interest in honest debate, you could have googled yourself and come up with a cite such as the following: [QUOTE=The Sports Journal, 2001] The perceptions of racial discrimination arise when one considers the vast discrepancy between the number of minorities who participate as players to those who help organize and run organizations at team or league levels. “The number of minorities hired . . . doesn’t come anywhere close to the number of Black athletes who play the games . . . On the field sports have as much equal opportunity as anything America has to offer. Off the field, sports are very segregated.” (Greenlee, 1998). As of 1996, African-Americans comprised 12.2% of the United States population, but were represented on 75% of the NBA rosters, 63% of the NFL’s, and 33% of MLB’s (Evans, 1997). Presently there are 4 African-American head coaches in the NFL (13% of such positions), 7 in the NBA (24%), and 3 African-American (11%) and 1 Hispanic (3%) in MLB. African-American assistant coaches account for 25% of NFL staffs, 34% of the NBA’s, and 14% of MLB’s (Holder, 1999). Furthermore, of the 221 officiating positions in professional sports, 25 were filled by African-Americans (Lyons, 1992). [/QUOTE] I’m becoming less and less impressed with your own citeless assertions. I think there are legitimate issues or points of disagreement, but your high school style “you didn’t address this point, so I’m right” tactic is flawed. Especially since you’re not doing it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/252 "2007-07-25T14:47:58Z")
Okay, let’s look at this question systematically, ignoring the “when did you stop beating your wife” OP. Does institutional racism exist? To be meaningful, the claim must be falsifiable. How, then, can we potentially disprove the existence of institutional racism? Clearly, the method of **ywtf** and **tomndebb** , in which over- and underrepresentation is held up as proof of racism, is inadequate. Equality of opportunity does not lead to equality of outcome, and to expect mathematical equity in all fields is unrealistic. It is perfectly possible that whether due to cultural, biological, or quantum factors, a group not discriminated against will not be equally represented in all fields. “White supremacist!” you cry. Not so fast. Let’s look at another minority to examine this claim - Asians. Right-wingers claim that they have succeeded despite historical racism; leftists that they have never felt the full impact of it. Both agree, however, that they are affected by racial politics to a minor degree as compared to certain other minorities. However, look at a distribution of representation in various fields, and you’ll see an uneven distribution; underrepresented in athletics and business, overrepresented in higher education and the sciences. Low levels of racism can still produce a very skewed distribution of careers. So, then, how should we go about investigating claims of institutional racism? **The raindog** ’s approach, checking out institutions one by one, will not satisfy, no matter how many negatives he returns - not only are there a huge number of commonly accepted institutions, the very definition is fluid and defining a hundred new ones is no great task. Instead of trying to prove a negative - “there is no American institution that is racist” - it makes logical sense to try to prove a positive - “at least one American institution is racist.” And the criteria must be better than looking at statistical representation; we’re looking for a systematic unfairness done to the entrants. If we want to claim a systemic flaw, we should point out the specific unfairness in the system. If we’re asserting subconscious racism by a large group of people, show how some individuals in there are racist, and prove that it exists in the body as a whole. Anything less, and we’re back to arguing about a racist diaphanous aether, which we can neither see, hear, taste, or sense. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/253 "2007-07-25T14:51:30Z")
Link to the article in [The Sports Journal](http://www.thesportjournal.org/2001Journal/Vol4-No4/minority-hiring-practices.asp) which **Hippy Hollow** quoted. Two things I note: - The figures from 2001 have “improved” in the last six years (actually, ten years, given that so may of the citations are from 1997 and earlier). - The comparison between a high percentage of players compared to front office personnel is somewhat offset by the fact that front office personnel appear to have numbers roughly corresponding to the population, at large. In other words, the players appear to have an overabundance of minority representation while the office appears to have a normal representation. Whether racism of one sort or another is responsible for that difference, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/254 "2007-07-25T14:54:48Z")
The percentage of African American players in Major League Baseball is declining (MLB: 8.4 as of 2006). See [here](http://inquirer.philly.com/pdfs/2007/MLB_by_race.pdf) (warning, pdf) and is now below the percentage of AA persons in the general population. Since the raindog believes that all you need to disprove racism is sheer numbers, and since MLB has underrepresentation of black players compared to the country at large, it appears his argument is completely exploded for one of the major sports in the US. You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/255 "2007-07-25T15:00:49Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Clearly, the method of **ywtf** and **tomndebb** , in which over- and underrepresentation is held up as proof of racism, is inadequate. [/QUOTE] Actually, I have not (yet) been arguing from statistical analysis. I have met the original question as to whether racism “still exists” with specific examples of racism: the overreporting of inaccurtate claims regarding the savagery of the Katrrina victims trapped in the Superdome, the deliberate actions of a neighboring police department to prevent blacks from escaping New Orleans by blocking a bridge (and then destroying the camp the survivors pitched on the New Orleans side of the bridge), the issue of Driving While Black, and the laws regarding powder cocaine vs crack. If someone does need to see some statistics, there is an interesting pint made near the end of the article [Why racial profiling doesn’t work](http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/08/22/racial_profiling/index.html) in which it is demonstrated that the cops of New York were stopping more blacks and hispanic appearing people than whites, but were actually catching more felons from among the white stops. (Interestingly, this is exactly the objection I had voiced regarding the DWB stops even though I had not seen this article until today.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/256 "2007-07-25T15:01:22Z")
Here is another pdf for 2005 for Major League Baseball, showing the complete breakdown by race and gender lines for all positions, from players to presidents: [http://www.bus.ucf.edu/sport/public/downloads/2005\_Racial\_Gender\_Report\_Card\_MLB.pdf](http://www.bus.ucf.edu/sport/public/downloads/2005_Racial_Gender_Report_Card_MLB.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/257 "2007-07-25T15:04:02Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Clearly, the method of **ywtf** and **tomndebb** , in which over- and underrepresentation is held up as proof of racism, is inadequate. [/QUOTE] the raindog is the only person saying that sheer numbers are proof of anything. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/258 "2007-07-25T15:19:40Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Clearly, the method of **ywtf** and **tomndebb** , in which over- and underrepresentation is held up as proof of racism, is inadequate. Equality of opportunity does not lead to equality of outcome, and to expect mathematical equity in all fields is unrealistic. [/quote] Actually, that’s **the rain dog’s** method that you’re shooting down. Not mine or **tomndebb’s**. All I’ve been doing is showing how ridiculous his argument sounds when flipped around. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/259 "2007-07-25T16:15:46Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I already answered this question: No. [/quote] So you don’t believe that racism, institutional or otherwise, gives any advantage to whites. Is that correct? > [@tomndebb](#): > > Now, I know that you enjoy taking umbrage at all the “personal” slurs around here, shielding yourself from similar charges by simply talking in vague generalities about “the usual suspects” while coyly never actually naming the posters against whom you are hurling your condemnations Well, yes, I am coyly shielding myself from charges of making personal slurs by not making personal slurs. > [@](#): > > other posters are allowed to express themselves more honestly regarding the direction a debate is moving. Just out of curiousity, is this an Official Ruling? You don’t have the mod hat on, so AFAIK this is just me expressing myself honestly about the direction a debate is moving. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/260 "2007-07-25T16:23:26Z")
Some people seem to feel that “institutional racism” is the only form of racism that can exist and has to be an an official policy to be real. I will concede that there is probably no organization in this country that actually has it in writing that “it is the policy of this institution to discriminate against black people”. So I guess it is possible to define racism in such a narrow and artificial way that you can claim it doesn’t exist. And then there’s the real world. That’s the one where you don’t just look at the written policies because anyone with half a brain knows that virtually every organization in the world is run by its unwritten rules. And if you have an organization that doesn’t have an official policy of discriminating against black people but just happens to always look for some reason to avoid hiring or promoting black people then you do indeed have a racist organization. And if you have an organization whose unwritten policy is to hire and/or promote as few black people as they can without getting in trouble for it, then you have a racist organization even if they do have some black employees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164.md?page=14)