# Are White People in Denial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164 "2007-07-17T18:30:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/281 "2007-07-25T19:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] If it is not going away, that implies pretty strongly that it is still here. So why all the denial that racism continues to play a part in society? [/QUOTE] The colored water fountains are a thing of the past. Back of the bus is done. No more whites only parks, restaurants or washrooms. THAT is institutional racism. Because one person, or even a group of people within an organization remain staunchly ignorant about the perils and evils of racism does not mean that the organization itself by definition is racist. [QUOTE=tomndebb] Knowable is not provable–and a number of actions, both legislative and judicial, through the 1980s to today, have made it much harder to prove. Texaco only got caught because their management team was taped discussing their actions. The sort of thing that I saw was always done with a nudge and a wink and I could not provide any sort of “evidence” of what I had seen. [/QUOTE] If I know something without the ability to prove it, what good is that knowledge except to me? Proof will help root out the scoundrels, without it, the knowledge and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee. [QUOTE=tomndebb] My SIL only found out what happened to her document when talking to a floor manager after she had left the company, so it would have been nothing but hearsay. (On the other hand, the fact that none of the managers at her company protested or took actaion against the “understood” policy did, in fact, make it company racism.) [/QUOTE] I disagree. I still attribute the racism to the people who are racist. I would posit that should the owners/board/whoever above the heads of the managers find out what the managers are up to, they’d put the kaibash on it. If the absolute head/owner/board of the place institutes a policy of racism, overt or covert, then it’s time to act (if it is proper to do so, which it isn’t always, even if the group is overtly racist). ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/282 "2007-07-25T19:45:02Z")
**Originally Posted by you with the face** Do believe there’s an inherent athletic advantage confered by race or are you posting stuff without thinking? If Shodan won’t answer it, I will. Yes. There is. Take a look at everyone from Swedes to Kenyans to Pacific Islanders to Aboriginal people of Australia. Each has an inherent athletic advantage, confered by race, over the other for their own specific environments. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/283 "2007-07-25T19:45:41Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] If I know something without the ability to prove it, what good is that knowledge except to me? Proof will help root out the scoundrels, without it, the knowledge and two bucks will get you a cup of coffee. [/QUOTE] The good of the knowledge is that it’s knowledge. It can inform Tom’s opinions (and the opinions of those who find him a credible witness) about the prevalence of racism in corporate America. ---
**Author:** ![Sumisu\_919](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Sumisu\_919](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumisu_919)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/284 "2007-07-25T19:49:17Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] The colored water fountains are a thing of the past. Back of the bus is done. No more whites only parks, restaurants or washrooms. THAT is institutional racism. Because one person, or even a group of people within an organization remain staunchly ignorant about the perils and evils of racism does not mean that the organization itself by definition is racist. [/quote] This is a phoney argument, nobody’s talking about instutional racism except a handful of folks including you that want to argue that a particular type of racism doesn’t exist while avoiding the discussion of the racism that does otherwise known as being in a state of denial. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/285 "2007-07-25T19:55:42Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] The good of the knowledge is that it’s knowledge. It can inform Tom’s opinions (and the opinions of those who find him a credible witness) about the prevalence of racism in corporate America. [/QUOTE] As I said, the knowledge is good to he who holds it, (me in my example) and to those that choose to listen, but the knowledge itself minus the proof is not sufficient cause for action. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/286 "2007-07-25T19:59:18Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] As I said, the knowledge is good to he who holds it, (me in my example) and to those that choose to listen, but the knowledge itself minus the proof is not sufficient cause for action. [/QUOTE] Since no one claimed that it was, I can’t figure out what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/287 "2007-07-25T20:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sumisu\_919] This is a phoney argument, nobody’s talking about instutional racism except a handful of folks including you that want to argue that a particular type of racism doesn’t exist while avoiding the discussion of the racism that does otherwise known as being in a state of denial. [/QUOTE] Okay, so you concede that institutional racism does not exist, so there can only be racist individuals. The onus is still on you to prove that they are numerous and powerful enough in aggregate to be something significant (and therefore possible to be “in denial” about.) A handful of secondhand anecdotes won’t do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Sumisu\_919](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Sumisu\_919](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sumisu_919)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/288 "2007-07-25T20:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Okay, so you concede that institutional racism does not exist, so there can only be racist individuals. The onus is still on you to prove that they are numerous and powerful enough in aggregate to be something significant (and therefore possible to be “in denial” about.) A handful of secondhand anecdotes won’t do the trick. [/QUOTE] Like I said the argument isn’t about institutionalized racism and if one read the excerpts from the sites containing **studies** that I posted one would see that racism is still a big problem despite not being state sanctioned. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/289 "2007-07-25T20:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=buttonjockey308] The colored water fountains are a thing of the past. Back of the bus is done. No more whites only parks, restaurants or washrooms. THAT is institutional racism. [/QUOTE] No. That is _de jure_ racism, established in law. The phrase “institutional racism” explicitly means those actions undertaken within society that are not explicitly intended to enforce racial bigotry, but that do so based on underlying, (and, generally, unconsiderd) assumptions. That is how the phrase was coined and that is how it has been used for 40 years. Attempting to identify _de jure_ racism as institutional racism (or trying to redefine institutional racism as the active and deliberate efforts of a specific institution) merely redefines an accepted term that has an established meaning to give it an inaccurate meaning. Redlining was a form of institutional racism. Banks looked at neighborhoods that were in decay and set higher premiums for loans, based on risk. If they had done that by looking at each street and noting whether a particular block was in decay, that would not have been institutional racism. What they did, instead, however, was note that some several blocks of an area were in decay, then “to be cautious” drew their red line around an entire area based on the fact that the inhabitants were black. By making it harder to get home loans or home improvement loans in those areas they hastened the decline of the neighborhoods, then ratiionalized their initial decisions by saying “See, our higher rates were prudent.” They did not deliberately harm themselves by devaluing the properties on which they held mortgages, but they wound up harming themselves based on unconsidered assumptions about black buyers and homeowners. (Yes, I am aware that redlining is now illegal. I ma not holding this forth as a current example, simply an easily understood example of institutional racism.) DWB is institutional racism. The neutral police concept is that things that are out of place are suspect. The application becomes “blacks are out of place in this neighborhood”–even when there is no history of black crime in a particular neighborhood or even when black families have begun to move into the neighborhood. The cops are not racists, they are simply accepting a particular traditional police concept without spending enough energy examining whether it is correctly applied. Some unconsidered assumptions are innocent, as when a cop thinks there will be more trouble under a full moon, but become a matter of racial discrimination when such unconsidered assumptions are used to harrass black drivers. (Note that in the link I provided earlier, they discovered that using race was actually hurting police enforcement.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/290 "2007-07-25T20:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] No, it’s not exactly what you asked. [/quote] Yes, it is. Did you read the quote? It is exactly what I asked. > [@](#): > > But then, apropos of nothing, you asked me whether a white person has an intellectual advantage over a black person. Apropos of nothing? I quoted your own question back at you (with a correction for your typo). > [@](#): > > I don’t think white and black doctors have a signficantly harder or easier time relative to one another. Once one jumps through all the hoops and barriers to become a doctor, the playing field is pretty even for the most part. There are exceptions, though. > > The trick is breaking through all the hoops and barriers. I think whites, _as a group_, have a easier time at that thanks to the effects of past racism. > [@](#): > > So while your attempt to play gotcha with me was a ballsy one, it didn’t pan out as hoped. Actually, it panned out perfectly. You have contradicted yourself, above. Whites have no advantage over blacks, except for the advantage they get from racism, which makes it easier to get into the field. > [@](#): > > Do believe there’s an inherent athletic advantage confered by race or are you posting stuff without thinking? No, and no, respectively. > [@Sumisu\_919](#): > > This is a phoney argument, nobody’s talking about instutional racism **tomndebb** is. > [@](#): > > An organization in which all the “right” words were posted in the HR manuals, but a lot of winking and nudging let everyone know that the company was not friendly to the “wrong” groups would be racist. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/291 "2007-07-25T20:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sumisu\_919] This is a phoney argument, nobody’s talking about instutional racism except a handful of folks including you that want to argue that a particular type of racism doesn’t exist while avoiding the discussion of the racism that does otherwise known as being in a state of denial. [/QUOTE] Listen you, I never said racism doesn’t exist. It does, and we all KNOW it does. We likely all know a racist, all of us. Though I believe that we may be able to ferret it out to a great degree, but the fact is that it will ALWAYS exist. I think it isn’t the same towering issue that it was even ten years ago, and that people capitalize on what it USED to mean to be anything other than white in America, and I believe there are far fewer ACTUAL victims than the public perceives. I think that facing the issue head-on as we have as a society, that, like smoking and lead based paint, eventually racism will simply crumble away to it’s rightful place on the ash-heap of history. It will never get there though with the cries of RACISM!!! at every possible, potential perceived turn. Frankly, what I think we have in this country isn’t truly racism at all, and more of a virulent classism. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/292 "2007-07-25T20:17:24Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] **the raindog** is engaged in a rather silly exercise in denial in which he uses bad logic and analogies so strained they have suffered hernias in order to attempt to establish his position. He has not yet engaged in personal attacks or made outrageous claims for the purpose of getting a rise out of other posters. [/QUOTE] _Thank you,_ Tom. I want to believe you’re being altruistic. My better judgement suggests that if “silly excercises and bad logic” were the basis for being sanctioned, you’d be court martialed. _Carry on._ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/293 "2007-07-25T20:26:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] It is exactly what I asked. [/quote] Can you read, man? Compare > [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that whites have any advantage over blacks in fields like medicine? with > [@](#): > > So you don’t believe that racism, institutional or otherwise, gives any advantage to whites. In the field of medicine, I don’t think whites have a significant advantage over blacks. I’ve already explained why. > [@](#): > > Apropos of nothing? I quoted your own question back at you (with a correction for your typo). It was apropos of nothing because I didn’t say anything that should lead you to believe I think whites have an intellectual advantage. > [@](#): > > No, and no, respectively. Thank you finally. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/294 "2007-07-25T20:28:04Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] _Thank you,_ Tom. I want to believe you’re being altruistic. My better judgement suggests that if “silly excercises and bad logic” were the basis for being sanctioned, you’d be court martialed. _Carry on._ 😃 [/QUOTE] You have failed to point out in errors in my logic and you are the one with the deep love for the “we’re still fighting the Nazis” analogy in which you invent things for other people to say that is not what they have said and is often counter to what they have said. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/295 "2007-07-25T20:28:16Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Okay, so you concede that institutional racism does not exist [/QUOTE] What the hell? The person who started the thread is clarifying that “institutional racism,” no matter how broadly or narrowly defined, is not the entire point of the thread. How in the world is that a concession that it doesn’t exist? I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/296 "2007-07-25T20:29:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sumisu\_919] How about addressing in a moderater type fashion **the raindog** ’s trollish behavior? [/QUOTE] Look at my history. Reread my posts in this thread. You may not agree, and that is your right. But it’s hardly trolling. I am respectful to you, and everyone else in this thread. I don’t know how long you’ve lurked, but I have a several year history with **tomndebb** , as an example. I respect him, and his intellect. When I believe he’s wrong (which is fair amount, in my view) I tell him. He’s equally bashful towards me. Given the stunning lack of diversity in this place, I can understand you figured it would be a love fest. Well, it ain’t. _You_ started this thread. You can’t run to the hall monitor when it ain’t going well for you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/297 "2007-07-25T20:34:05Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] I am respectful to you, and everyone else in this thread. [/QUOTE] Like when you say that a bunch of us are racists and put words into our mouths? If that’s respect, I’d rather have your contempt. At least that’s honest. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/298 "2007-07-25T20:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Like when you say that a bunch of us are racists and put words into our mouths? If that’s respect, I’d rather have your contempt. At least that’s honest. [/QUOTE] You have my honesty, but I have no contempt for you. It is my view that a well intentioned, sincere course that is patronizing and condescending is racist, and can’t be validated by good intentions. So, in my view I see alot of good intentioned, but severely misguided, (and ultimately patronizing) text in this thread that, at it’s core, is racist thinking. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/299 "2007-07-25T20:41:52Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Look at my history. Reread my posts in this thread. You may not agree, and that is your right. But it’s hardly trolling. I am respectful to you, and everyone else in this thread. [/quote] Patting ourselves rather hard on the back, aren’t we? I’m of the opinion that calling your opponents victims, ascribing strawman positions to them, and ignoring the questions they put to you is about as disrespectful as you can get in GD. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164/300 "2007-07-25T20:57:12Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] Patting ourselves rather hard on the back, aren’t we? I’m of the opinion that calling your opponents victims, ascribing strawman positions to them, and ignoring the questions they put to you is about as disrespectful as you can get in GD. [/QUOTE] Did I say they were victims? Of course, they are _not_ victims. (like you, for example; by your account you’ve never been victimized by racism) What I _meant_, is that they’re _acting_ like victims, and thereby perpetuating the “institutional racism” myth. I hope that helps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-white-people-in-denial/412164.md?page=16)