# Are wind turbines worth it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201 "2010-08-13T23:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/121 "2010-08-17T22:00:24Z")
I’m not sure anyone has fundamentally answered the OP, so I’ll baldly state that wind turbines are profitable without government subsidies. They cost around $1 million per megawatt and last around 25 years without major retrofits. Assuming power prices don’t plummet over the next 25 years, the average wind turbine located in a windy place will see significant profits over its lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/122 "2010-08-17T23:23:46Z")
> [@phreesh](#): > > Fuel costs > Spent nuclear fuel > > While I admire the optimism of a previous poster who speculated that future generations over the next 10,000 years will find a way to safely dispose of spent nuclear fuel, I take the opposite view. If we invest in more and more nuclear plants, there will be more and more waste that remains incredibly dangerous over enormours timescales. > > Who’s to say that we will be able to trust all governments (hundreds of generations of governents) to safeguard this waste for the next 1000 generations? And who are we to say to those people far, far into the future that it was easier for us to pass along the burden of dealing with it than coming up with solutions in our own time? With all due respect, all spent fuel can be reprocessed to be used as fuel in our current reactors and materials that can’t be reprocessed can be used as fuel in a Integral Fast Reactor (IFR). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral\_Fast\_Reactor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor) For all practical purposes, we have no nuclear waste. We have fuel that our politicians have chosen not to recycle. The problem was first caused by the decision of President Carter to shut down our reprocessing operations and second by the Clinton administration to shut down the IFR project in 1994. The IFR decision I mostly blame on Hazel O’Leary and not Clinton. Actually throwing away our spent fuel would be criminal stupidity. It will be providing electricity for our children and grandchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/123 "2010-08-17T23:47:38Z")
> [@limegreen](#): > > My BIL is fighting right now to have turbines moved back from his property line, which is very close to his house. If you’ve never heard of shadow flicker, it is very disconcerting and a property value killer. ( [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbIe0iUtelQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbIe0iUtelQ) ) I’ve listened to audio clips of the noise and thought it was trivial. I could live with the low frequency whooshing. But holy shit, that flicker would drive me bat-shit insane. I hope your brother succeeds. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/124 "2010-08-18T00:29:31Z")
New wind is coming in at $0.09/kWh, new baseload coal $0.13/kWh. We subsidize established energy production methods at ten times the rate that we do renewables. Oh, and for bird kills, the Audubon Society has come out in favor of wind turbines. Many more are killed by housecats and buildings. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/125 "2010-08-18T03:25:45Z")
If you are interested in using pumped storage in connection wind power, David JC MacKay devotes Chapter 26 to this topic: [http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c26/page\_186.shtml](http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c26/page_186.shtml) He does the math and it looks like the suitable locations for pumped storage are far smaller than what would be need to store the wind energy. Personally I’m intrigued with the idea of using the wind turbine electricity to produce ammonia and transport it through our ammonia pipelines around the country and used as vehicle fuel. Ammonia’s advantage as a fuel is that the combustion products are nitrogen and water, so now greenhouse gases are emitted. This would require large storage facilities for the ammonia. I figure worst case we can store the ammonia in caverns like we do the strategic petroleum reserve. [http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/why.html](http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/why.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/126 "2010-08-18T04:34:18Z")
Our ammonia pipelines? We already have some? And that link says it’s produced from natural gas and coal, which means it’s still producing greenhouse gases, just at the plant, not the vehicle. Plus, of course, it produces toxic vapors. You’d have to overengineer all the pipes and tanks to make absolute certain that it never leaks, or you could kill whole towns, and you’d need to completely redesign the refuelling systems for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/127 "2010-08-18T06:01:08Z")
Well the coal and natural gas is only used to produce Hydrogen gas, which is then combined with nitrogen and a catalyst to form NH3. You could use the useless night time wind power to generate the hydrogen by electrolysing water. Mind you, why not then just burn the hydrogen in the daytime and forget the whole ammonia thing. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/128 "2010-08-18T08:14:25Z")
Here is an article about producing Ammonia from hydroelectricity. The principles would apply to Wind Power also. [http://www.hydroworld.com/index/display/article-display/0927773395/articles/hydro-review/volume-28/issue-7/articles/renewable-fuels\_\_manufacturing.html](http://www.hydroworld.com/index/display/article-display/0927773395/articles/hydro-review/volume-28/issue-7/articles/renewable-fuels__manufacturing.html) I just found a paper about using wind power to produce ammonia. The picture of the US Ammonia pipeline is on page 50 of the article or 7 of the PDF. [Transmission and Firming of GW-Scale Wind Energy via Hydrogen and Ammonia](http://www.leightyfoundation.org/files/WINDENGRG-Holbrook-Leighty-Mar08.pdf) > [@](#): > > It is important to mention ammonia safety. Ammonia’s safety challenges are primarily caused by its extreme reactivity with water, which creates an inhalation and tissue contact hazard. It is classified as “Hazard Zone D inhalation hazard (49 CFR 173.116 (a))”. Hazard Zone D materials have a lethal concentration (LC 50) greater than 3,000 parts per million and less than or equal to 5,000 parts per million [22]. On the other hand, ammonia is not explosive nor highly-flammable, and does not need to be stored at high pressures. It is easily detected by its odor, thus providing its own alarm. Like every chemical, ammonia requires proper handling equipment, training and experience, and respect. But, given the millions of tons of ammonia routinely delivered and handled in the U.S. every year, **ammonia has an excellent safety record, as good as, or better than, any widely used hydrocarbon fuel** [23]. The important thing to remember is that ammonia is a transport medium for hydrogen. It is much easier to transport and store ammonia than hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/129 "2010-08-18T17:43:44Z")
> [@Great\_Dave](#): > > New wind is coming in at $0.09/kWh, new baseload coal $0.13/kWh. We subsidize established energy production methods at ten times the rate that we do renewables. > > Oh, and for bird kills, the Audubon Society has come out in favor of wind turbines. Many more are killed by housecats and buildings. What are your sources for those three numbers? And the second paragraph has a logic problem - it’s not an “either-or”, it’s additive. If X birds die from housecats each year and Y from buildings and Z from turbines, which is larger? X+Y or X+Y+Z ? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201/130 "2010-08-18T17:46:08Z")
It’s possibly easier in areas where the wind generation is much higher at night to move production to the second and third shift. I have worked with an effort in Iowa to encourage factories to run all their big-MW batch processes at night and to move production to the night shifts. Alcoa has considered this, as has ADM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-wind-turbines-worth-it/550201.md?page=6)