Well, regardless of how you see yourself, please feel free to see yourself as a member of humanity. And, be happy in that 
Three cheers for Jackie!!!
getting away from this idea:
Is the first step.
You seem like a good person, and you seem to be on the right track.
Even if you were a christian, and even if you thought a christian ideology was something you thought, “I like this, I’m a christian”.
I would think you’d be a practical christian, someone who saw the bigger picture of being an honest person, being someone who saw people for who they were. Human beings!
yes I think I will be much better not fooling myself any longer.
I am still the same person just no longer holding myself to Christianity.
I think I may feel it is ok to love myself now.
I never could love myself because I was too busy trying to be the way I thought I was supposed to be.
Of course I couldn’t.
I will now be myself free to say with honesty I am not a christian. I feel better.
I understand the rejection of the rest of it (don’t agree, but understand), but people don’t do bad stuff anymore? :dubious:
jackie lee, IMHO there’s no point in trying to live up to Christ without asking Him for help. Some verses to look at might be Psalms 32:5, Proverbs 28:13, Psalms 34:18, Isaiah 40:27-31, Psalms 65:3, Ephesians 1:7-8, Romans 3:24-25.
Whatever ends up happening, I’ll be praying for you.
I am such a bad Christian that I rarely allow myself to post in Christian threads.
But I’d like to say to jackie lee, honesty is pretty dang important. You may be closer to God now than you’ve ever been, because you’ve gotten honest about yourself.
Being a Christian isn’t about going to church. It isn’t about not sinning. It isn’t about “being a good person”. It’s about Love, and following Christ – which amounts to the same thing, doesn’t it?
It’s such a cliche, but remember “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.” Evidence of your human nature – lust, impatience, etc. – isn’t evidence that you’re not a Christian.
Call yourself what you will. God doesn’t notice the labels, he just sees you yourself.
It seems to me that Christianity is more a matter of belief than of worth. Do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? Do you believe in the resurrection and the rest of it? That seems to me to be sort of the defining trait of Christianity. And, of course, it’s why I’m not a Christian. But if you think you’re not a Christian because you can’t be perfect… You may not fit with the particular denomination you were brought up into, but there’s plenty of denominations that actually recognize that humans are fallible.
Just as goes for the experience of most young homosexuals: if you’re extremely worried all the time about whether you are Christian or not, chances are, you probably are. Whether you feel you can live up to your ideal of what a good Christian can be is entirely up to you.
Thank you all especially super Gnat and masonite you help me realize I have put a label or title on myself.
I can’t even live up to the smallest details of what I expected out of myself as a Christian.
I feel better now that I realize I am not going to try and prove myself anymore.
I have to admit I had panic attacks thinking I would give up this role playing of a Christian.
I have been a miserable Christian or hipocrit.
I am much better off for the realization.
I really think we are harder on ourselves than God would be…
Super Gnat, I don’t want to hijack jackie lee’s thread, but my point is that “sin” is a primitive, outmoded way of looking at the things we do and the attitudes we hold that harm others. Yes, people do “bad stuff” all the time - just turn on the nightly news. Perhaps another thread sometime?
jackie lee - I beg of you not to worry or distress yourself over labels. Just do your best each day to be kind to others, and to spread love. If you fail, dust yourself off, pick yourself up again, and start anew.
Take care,
MH
I think the key is to remember this:
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Be nice to people, as best you can.
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Everyone is only human, so they’re going to screw up #1 a lot.
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That doesn’t mean you don’t keep trying. Be patient with yourself and others.
I think the idea that people are born corrupt and need some sort of forgiveness is basically the most irrational part of Christianity. (No other religion has any such concept. In every other religion people are presumed to be born good). This idea that people can’t be good on their own and need salvation is just a crock. Of course people can be good on their own, it happens all the time.
Furthermore, if humans were incapable of being good on their own, that would be God’s fault would it not? How is it logical to say that God creates imperfect beings and then blames them for being imperfect. Doesn’t this also invalidate the point of free will. If good cannot be chosen than how can we really say we have free will?
I don’t understand the self-loathing that is a part of so much Christian thought. On some other Christian message boards I’ve seen it’s almost fetishistic. Some people seem to actually get off on abasing themselves and talking about how unworthy they are.
Well I’m not unworthy. I’ve got nothing to repent about. I’m a perfectly fine individual and I’ve got nothing to apologize for. I would say the same about 95% of the rest of the world. The idea that God would require a “sacrifice” makes no sense to me either. Can’t God just forgive whoever he wants? What was the point of nailing some hippy to a tree?
Self-loathing ISN’T part of Christianity. Nor did Jesus ever say people are fundamentally evil.
But people are NOT fundamentally good, either. Most people are… to use Allan Bloom’s perjorative, “nice.” Not saints, not depraved monsters, just “nice.” Generous, as long as it’s not too much trouble. Forgiving, so long as the offense isn’t too serious. Brave, so long as the stakes aren’t too high. Honest more often than not, generally willing to live and let live, not mean or cruel TOO often… just “nice.”
But while a world of “nice” people isn’t the worst thing imaginable, some of us aspire to something much better. And Jesus pointed the way there. Far from being a pleasant hippie, Jesus was a tough and demanding teacher. He tells us, “You think you’re going to heaven because you’re nice? EVERYBODY’S nice! Pagans are nice. Tax collectors are nice. Prostitutes are nice. If you want to go to heaven, you’ll have to be a LOT more than nice. You’ll have to be PERFECT.”
(That’s a loose but pretty accurate rendition of Matthew 5 43-48).
Earlier, I said, jokingly that I’m a Christian but I’m not very good at it. But really, that’s not a joke. That’s where most Christians stand. We WANT to be genuinely good. Most of us are just “nice.” Diogenes thinks “nice” is plenty good enough. I don’t. And neither did the “hippie.”
What does “perfect” mean? I think my wife is perfect. I know my daughter is perfect. So they’re cool with God then?
Folks, folks. Let’s take it to another thread, k?
Tax collectors are nice???
My take would be that Christianity (and most other relisions) seesm to demand a state of constant sacrifice. Now, correct me if I am wrong here, but sacrifice to me means the trading of a higher value for a lesser one (to trade a lesser for a higher is a gain, not a sacrifice). That does not sound like any way to live to me. If that makes one perfect, then I will just continue being nice, charitable, honest etc. And hope that others will accept the same
Yeah, tax collectors are “nice.” As “nice” as most people.
Ask most tepid believers, “Are you going to Heaven” and they’ll probably tell you, “Well… sure, yeah, I guess. I mean… I’m not so bad.”
And it’s true enough. MOST people aren’t “so bad.” That was true in Jesus’ time and it’s true now. MOST people are “nice” to those who are “nice” to them. MOST people will do other people an occasional small favor, expecting payback or some reward. And Jesus says in Matthew 5, “Big deal! So what if you’re nice to people who are nice to you? Even tax collectors do that. Even the worst of sinners do that.”
If all you want is a reasonably pleasant, orderly world, that’s swell. But for people who want to call themselves Christians and who take the idea of Heaven seriously, that’s not good enough. Not even close.
Fortunately, I don’t want to call myself a Christian and I have no interest in Heaven.
It’s worth noting, Diogenes, that as far as I can tell the whole “born evil” thing is almost purely a Western Christianity thing. Dead babies in the Eastern church go to heaven, as they have not had opportunity to sin.
My understanding of the eastern branches of the church (I’m most familiar with Russian Orthodox) is that Jesus was intended to be a really good example, not some sort of redemption.
Correct. Original sin is not a part of Eastern Orthodoxy. I’m basically talking about the western stuff.
Quote I heard yesterday on the radio:
Believing that sitting in church makes you a Christian is like believing that sitting in Winchell’s makes you a police officer!
