# Are You a Good Person? Documentary that discusses this subject and Abortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998 "2011-12-21T21:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/201 "2011-12-23T02:44:40Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, you might think location is more _meaningful_ criteria than, say, national borders, but it’s no less arbitrary a criteria. In that case, all criteria are arbitrary and arbitrariness becomes irrelevant to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/202 "2011-12-23T02:47:12Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, you might think location is more _meaningful_ criteria than, say, national borders, but it’s no less arbitrary a criteria. Well, in that case, I invite you to (under safe medical conditions, of course) slice open your abdomen, insert a baby (with a snorkel, I guess), and walk around for a while. If I understand your argument correctly (and there’s always the chance I haven’t), the baby’s _location_ inside your body is meaningless and arbitrary. Heck, if you could fit a three year-old in there, you could fly and go to drive-ins without having to pay the extra charge. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/203 "2011-12-23T02:48:00Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Location is an arbitrary criteria, and is no more meaningful than any other criteria you could come up with to differentiate two groups of humans. It’s quite simple, really. > > _waits for Bryan_ _waits for omg to make this argument in an immigration thread_ Hey hdc, I’m gonna need one of your kidneys, that was some killer sushi you made me. Yeah I know this is risky for you and will have permanent effects on your body, but since you were an agent in my condition, I’m sure you agree that it’s a reasonable compromise for me to let you keep one, right?\* \*apologies if this is double posted, working from my stoopid phone ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/204 "2011-12-23T02:48:01Z")
**OMG A Black Conservative** Unless you can explain how and why location is an arbitrary criteria, you haven’t given anybody any reason to agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/205 "2011-12-23T02:52:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, in that case, I invite you to (under safe medical conditions, of course) slice open your abdomen, insert a baby (with a snorkel, I guess), and walk around for a while. Why would I do that? > [@](#): > > If I understand your argument correctly (and there’s always the chance I haven’t), the baby’s _location_ inside your body is meaningless and arbitrary. Only insomuch as location has anything to do with being afforded basic rights. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/206 "2011-12-23T02:57:00Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Why would I do that? I dunno, but if you _did_ and decided to end the experiment early, I’ll support your right to do so. > [@](#): > > Only insomuch as location has anything to do with being afforded basic rights. Well, we’re just going to end up disagreeing on whose interests should prevail when “basic rights” are in conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/207 "2011-12-23T02:58:13Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > _waits for omg to make this argument in an immigration thread_ > > Hey hdc, I’m gonna need one of your kidneys, that was some killer sushi you made me. Yeah I know this is risky for you and will have permanent effects on your body, but since you were an agent in my condition, I’m sure you agree that it’s a reasonable compromise for me to let you keep one, right?\* > > \*apologies if this is double posted, working from my stoopid phone I don’t know how many times I will have pointed this out, but the vast majority of abortions have nothing to do with the female’s body. In fact, the vast majority of abortions are done for a reason independent of it, where the only link between “the woman’s body” and having an abortion is that she can have an abortion because it’s “her body”. > [@DocCathode](#): > > OMG A Black Conservative Unless you can explain how and why location is an arbitrary criteria, you haven’t given anybody any reason to agree with you. I do believe the individual using the whole “location is where it’s at!” line of reasoning is the one burdened with explaining why one should have to accept that chain of logic, even over other similarly applied chains of logic. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/208 "2011-12-23T03:00:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I dunno, but if you _did_ and decided to end the experiment early, I’ll support your right to do so. And what experiment was that? > [@](#): > > Well, we’re just going to end up disagreeing on whose interests should prevail when “basic rights” are in conflict. There is no right more fundamental than the right to not be killed. If there is, I’d like to hear what it is. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/209 "2011-12-23T03:02:03Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I do believe the individual using the whole “location is where it’s at!” line of reasoning is the one burdened with explaining why one should have to accept that chain of logic, even over other similarly applied chains of logic. Others have stated a position and attempted to back it up. You just stated a position. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/210 "2011-12-23T03:12:30Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Others have stated a position and attempted to back it up. You just stated a position. What post were you reading? “You can’t be a person if you’re inside of another person because to be a person you have to be born, which you’re not if you’re unborn as you’re inside another person” is pretty much the attempted justification behind the whole location argument. To be short, that’s not a justification at all and it provides no argument as to why it’s less arbitrary than any other criteria one can come up with or even, if you want to get down to it, why one should accept your dividing line over, say, mine. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/211 "2011-12-23T03:12:36Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I don’t know how many times I will have pointed this out, but the vast majority of abortions have nothing to do with the female’s body. In fact, the vast majority of abortions are done for a reason independent of it, where the only link between “the woman’s body” and having an abortion is that she can have an abortion because it’s “her body”.’ I don’t know either, likely because it was as incoherent as that, and I ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/212 "2011-12-23T03:13:16Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And what experiment was that? Does trying to make me repeat myself count as a win for you, or something? Do you think if you pretend not to understand my point, my point becomes meaningless? > [@](#): > > There is no right more fundamental than the right to not be killed. If there is, I’d like to hear what it is. Well, the right to be secure in one’s person, which includes, if necessary, the right to self-defense even at the cost of another’s life. But we’re just gonna disagree, yada yada… ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/213 "2011-12-23T03:22:38Z")
No discussion of fetuses is complete without a mention of [Paranex, The Fighting Fetus](http://mimg.ugo.com/201102/2/1/1/175112/cuts/paranex_480x480.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/214 "2011-12-23T03:36:49Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I don’t know either, likely because it was as incoherent as that, and I ignored it. There’s nothing incoherent about it. Stuff like “pregnancy being risky” and “pregnancy having a lasting effect on the woman’s body” are red herrings, simply because pro-choicers, in general, will allow a woman to have an abortion for any reason even if her reasons for doing so have nothing to do with “pregnancy being risky” or the “pregnancy having a lasting effect on her body”. But as much as I’ve pointed this out, it gets ignored. So oh well. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Does trying to make me repeat myself count as a win for you, or something? Do you think if you pretend not to understand my point, my point becomes meaningless? It’s more likely the result of not understanding the point you were trying to make, on account of you trying to argue some point not made. But, if you wish, you can go with what you said. > [@](#): > > Well, the right to be secure in one’s person, which includes, if necessary, the right to self-defense even at the cost of another’s life. But we’re just gonna disagree, yada yada… I started to type something out, but [this](http://books.google.com/books?id=gL4Pa1TxP00C&pg=PA1554&lpg=PA1554&dq=This+positive+right+depends+on+there+being+a+moral+asymmetry+between+oneself+as+an+unoffending+person,+and+someone+who+poses+a+threat&source=bl&ots=GIqdkTwW0y&sig=K6YPP-tKPUQS10POfrECnDN7uC0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mPXzTunqEIaUtwedhKXRBg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=This%20positive%20right%20depends%20on%20there%20being%20a%20moral%20asymmetry%20between%20oneself%20as%20an%20unoffending%20person%2C%20and%20someone%20who%20poses%20a%20threat&f=false) pretty much sums it up: > [@](#): > > [The right to self-defense] depends on there being a moral asymmetry between oneself as an unoffending person, and someone who poses a threat. Someone who is an unjust agressor is commonly said to forfeit certain rights. This forfeiture is often taken as crucial to the justification of the use of force against a person in self-defense. There’s more to read than that, but you can read it all there. Only when someone threatens your life can you kill them. You cannot, for example, kill someone because they are punching you in the arm. If you do, you’ll end up in trouble. Again I say to you that I would like to see you show me which right is more fundamental than the right to life. I kind of want to see if you will assert that liberty trumps life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/215 "2011-12-23T03:47:05Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Only when someone threatens your life can you kill them. You cannot, for example, kill someone being they are punching you in the arm. If you do, you’ll end up in trouble. Again I say to you that I would like to see you show me which right is more fundamental than the right to life. I kind of want to see if you will assert that liberty trumps life. Well, here I am doing just that - the liberty of the woman is something I hold as more important than, trumping if you will, the life of the fetus. I have various unarbitrary reasons for deciding in this manner, which I’m sure I’ve explained at length in other threads. Besides, you’d only get “in trouble” if the state decides you should be “in trouble”, and I don’t see any justification in this case for the state to do so. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/216 "2011-12-23T05:00:18Z")
omg, I certainly can’t be bothered to try to edit your pile of words on ny phone, but of course I want women to be able to abort “just” because it’s their body. That’s, you know, the point. It’s my body. I’m not obliged to share it. Here’s something no one ever seems to hear no matter how often I say it: I cannot be legally compelled to donate an organ or even blood to my existing extra-uterine child, even if she’ll die without it. What makes a fetus so special that you’d imbue it with rights no other human has? As for risk and effects, that’s simply a counter to the “inconvenience” crap that people (mostly with penises) spew. Of course, if you want to talk red herrings, more women die in childbirth than seek third trimester abortions, not that I imagine that troubles you. ---
**Author:** ![Villanova\_Junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4da419/32.png) [@Villanova\_Junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Villanova_Junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/217 "2011-12-23T05:02:49Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I am always amazed at people who come along and want us to watch 30 minute video with very little indication on what it’s for. It’s usually propaganda. They want to sound like new posters asking for opinions about things. That’s why all links are SPAM. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/218 "2011-12-23T05:13:54Z")
[Watch this video, it’ll change your world!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay2CHX9qeLA) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/219 "2011-12-23T05:18:51Z")
In tangentially related news, I keep waiting for some dipshit republican to propose that the solution to unemployment is to simply bar women from holding jobs other than nursing, housekeeping, or providing childcare. Remember folks, you heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/220 "2011-12-23T05:56:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, here I am doing just that - the liberty of the woman is something I hold as more important than, trumping if you will, the life of the fetus. I have various unarbitrary reasons for deciding in this manner, which I’m sure I’ve explained at length in other threads. I beg to differ. Your reason boils down to “because it’s inside of the woman’s body”, and when I ask you why that’s important you tell me “because it is” or something similar. I can find you an example of this if you like, though it probably won’t matter in the long-run. > [@](#): > > Besides, you’d only get “in trouble” if the state decides you should be “in trouble”, and I don’t see any justification in this case for the state to do so. I find preventing one individual from killing another at his or her whim to be a pretty powerful justification. > [@DianaG](#): > > omg, I certainly can’t be bothered to try to edit your pile of words on ny phone, but of course I want women to be able to abort “just” because it’s their body. That’s, you know, the point. It’s my body. I’m not obliged to share it. Essentially, this means that one only has control of their body so long as someone else allows them to. That seems kind of counter to the whole “control-over-one’s-body” talk, don’t you think? > [@](#): > > Here’s something no one ever seems to hear no matter how often I say it: I cannot be legally compelled to donate an organ or even blood to my existing extra-uterine child, even if she’ll die without it. What makes a fetus so special that you’d imbue it with rights no other human has? It’s probably because it doesn’t have any bearing on the issue. The relationship between a born child and its mother is different to that of an unborn child and its mother. > [@](#): > > As for risk and effects, that’s simply a counter to the “inconvenience” crap that people (mostly with penises) spew. It’s important to note that men and women do not hold fundamentally different views of abortion, and that where differences are found men are typically more supportive of abortion than women whereas women tend to inhabit the poles and are more extreme in their views. So, as it relates to this, you’re more likely to find that “inconvenience crap”, as you call it, spewed by a woman than you are a man. But I digress. Pointing out the “risks and effects” of pregnancy isn’t much of a “counter” to anything since virtually no one denies that pregnancy can be dangerous. What is being said is that the overwhelming majority of pregnancies are done for reasons which have nothing to do with pregnancy being dangerous or carrying risks. They, in essence, amount to lifestyle decisions. > [@](#): > > Of course, if you want to talk red herrings, more women die in childbirth than seek third trimester abortions, not that I imagine that troubles you. And…? If, hypothetically speaking, there was a maternal mortality rate of zero, would you agree that abortion should be illegal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=12)