# Are You a Good Person? Documentary that discusses this subject and Abortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998 "2011-12-21T21:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/241 "2011-12-23T18:21:38Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You cannot view that which does not exist. Oh, I can see easily enough that reason doesn’t exist in your arguments. It leaves a conspicuous void, like a doughnut center. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/242 "2011-12-23T18:42:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > To my mind, basing the cut-off on capacity for conciousness has two benefits: (1) it can be defended scientifically; and (2) as a purely practical benefit, it in fact demonstrates the moral legitimacy (or rather, the lack of any objective moral issue at all) of the overwhelming number of real-life abortion decisions. As others have pointed out, third-trimester abortions are vanishingly rare and are in any event usually undertaken for medical reasons. > > The arguments for conception and birth as the cut-offs have a similarity: both advocates pose their choice as being certain and logical. But the development from a buncha cells into a fully-fledged human is a gradual process. Again, your thoughts are in total unison with my own. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/243 "2011-12-23T18:47:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The arguments for conception and birth as the cut-offs have a similarity: both advocates pose their choice as being certain and logical. But the development from a buncha cells into a fully-fledged human is a gradual process. What about “birth” arguments that _aren’t_ based on the cell-to-human process? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/244 "2011-12-23T18:59:04Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Not at all. If that were my stance, my daughter would have been born, but NEVER reached 21, I assure you. > > The pro-choice stance is simply that my body is mine, and no other person has the right to ride it for free. “Ass, Gas, or Grass”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/245 "2011-12-23T19:09:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What about “birth” arguments that _aren’t_ based on the cell-to-human process? Other arguments tend to be based on autonomy - but such arguments run into the problem that they are essentially arguing for the primacy of one human’s requirements over another (if conceding for the moment that the object under analysis is in fact a “person”), which, while arguable, is not on its face an obvious argument winner. The problem is demonstrating why it would make sense to treat the fetus immediately pre-birth wholly differently from that immediately post-birth. Few argue that a newborn could be tossed into the medical waste bin if the parent does not want it. A theory that would allow the parent to do the same immediately pre-birth would have to have some very convincing logic to it. Moreover, the problem is of more theoretical interest than real. The actual number of abortions occurring late in the pregnancy are very, very small. Why is the argument necessary, when a far more convincing one exists which demonstrates that, objectively, the act of abortion as it actually occurs in real life is a moral non-issue? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/246 "2011-12-23T19:10:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > ETA: And while it might have been tempting to shoot Adolf, I’d never consider murdering his mother to prevent his birth. SHE did not commit crimes, he did. We don’t execute parents for the crimes of their children. > [@Stoid](#): > > I’d shoot her in a heartbeat to prevent that child’s crimes. Yabbut, if Hitler’s never born, history itself takes a different path, and it’s possible that your own parents never meet, or make different mating decisions than the ones that led to your own birth. For **Broomstick** , that “it’s possible” potentially gains even more weight. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/247 "2011-12-23T20:02:41Z")
Great. The OP is gone, and here comes another endless debate where no one will change their mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/248 "2011-12-23T20:19:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Other arguments tend to be based on autonomy - but such arguments run into the problem that they are essentially arguing for the primacy of one human’s requirements over another (if conceding for the moment that the object under analysis is in fact a “person”), which, while arguable, is not on its face an obvious argument winner. Well, that’s why we bring in supporting arguments, i.e. positing a world where women have complete control over when they’ll have children and and a world where they don’t, and compare/contrast. The ramifications do indeed matter, and it’s easy to recognize that conceding a degree of state interference (i.e. no elective abortions in, say, the last trimester, or after “viability” circa 23-24 weeks) won’t stop there, given the energies and determination of those who want _complete_ state interference, i.e. a total ban. The number of women actually affected by the initial restriction is small, since the number of elective post-viability abortions is small, but I have no confidence that would satisfy an ardent pro-lifer. Through an unusual series of events, Canada has no abortion law and an elective post-viability abortion is legal. This circumstance has not led to any slippery-slope secondary effects that I’m aware of, like it becoming legal to kill infants or toddlers, so I don’t see why introducing a post-viability restriction is necessary. Further, I don’t see why the Americans (or indeed, any society) couldn’t also discard its abortion laws. Women will continue to get pregnant. Some will want a child, some will not. Those who do not will find some way to avoid it, to varying degrees of injury to themselves if safe methods are not available. This isn’t some idealized stance that relies solely on some axiomatic idea like “my body, my choice.” There are real-world consequences being recognized. > [@](#): > > The problem is demonstrating why it would make sense to treat the fetus immediately pre-birth wholly differently from that immediately post-birth. Few argue that a newborn could be tossed into the medical waste bin if the parent does not want it. A theory that would allow the parent to do the same immediately pre-birth would have to have some very convincing logic to it. Well, I’d guess that killing a newborn is much more common (possibly by several orders of magnitude; I’ll check for statistics) than a woman seeking a very-late-term elective abortion, though the latter has anecdotal evidence of women doing injuries to themselves in last-minute desperate attempts to not have a baby. > [@](#): > > Moreover, the problem is of more theoretical interest than real. The actual number of abortions occurring late in the pregnancy are very, very small. Why is the argument necessary, when a far more convincing one exists which demonstrates that, objectively, the act of abortion as it actually occurs in real life is a moral non-issue? No argument here. Try telling the pro-lifers that. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/249 "2011-12-23T21:02:48Z")
> [@Phatlewt](#): > > One might argue that defining consciousness is a little more complicated than brain activity during REM sleep. I’m entirely up to being humored, so humor me with a concrete definition of consciousness that _only_ includes born humans which also fails to exclude a born human who does not meet said definition. Even though it’s quite impossible to do, I’m rather curious as to what you’re going to come up with. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I can see easily enough that reason doesn’t exist in your arguments. It leaves a conspicuous void, like a doughnut center. Well, if you say so, then it must be true, right? Because that’s surely how you-- and I use the term loosely-- “debate” 😛 (I take it I won’t be getting a Christmas present from you, huh?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/250 "2011-12-23T21:08:07Z")
Even your attempts at mockery lack substance. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/251 "2011-12-23T21:34:04Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > It’s a very engaging 30 minutes. I don’t believe anyone who watches it will be bored. > > Yes, it’s very much about abortion. The two main topics are abortion and the gospel of Christ. It sets up the the rest of the movie by introducing the holocaust. > > It may or may not provide a new argument, depending on your background I guess. It tries to present the argument in a different light. > > And yes, it is pro-life oriented. I think in many cases the phrase pro-life just means life before birth I consider many of them just pro-birth. They give the same rights to a fertile egg even more so in some cases. I wonder if a pro\_life person in a situation where there is an Adult in a room with several Embryo’s and another Adult,the adult is unconcience, they can save the many embryo’s or the already born Adult. Which would you choose? Pro-choice people are pro-life. They are for people after they are born or now can be recognized as a person. Human life began eons ago, and even if you believe in the Genesis story it would have started at least 5,000 years( or more ago). Life is a passed on thing and if one is just saying human life, there is life in a man’s sperm the same life that if met with an egg produces a future human being. To me the woman has the right to determine with her doctor if the life would mean she would die,or weither (if she already has several children) it would mean the already born would not get the proper food, education, or medical help it needs, so the child can live a decent life or not chance starvation or die becasue it can’t get medical treatments if needed This happens in 3d world countries even now. It would be good if there was a way for a woman of child bearing years had a safe and effective Birth control. And if the so called pro-life people were more willing to support the child once it was born, help the mother care for the children etc.but I hear too many complain about welfare Moms, and do not want to pay taxes to support them once born! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/252 "2011-12-23T23:45:13Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Great. The OP is gone, and here comes another endless debate where no one will change their mind. Well, surely it will end some day! I don’t figure we’ll be arguing this in A.D. 9595… (Er…I’m not betting money on that, you understand…) I read these debates, because, every once in a rare while, someone actually says something new! ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/253 "2011-12-24T01:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Look, I’m pro-choice, but this isn’t a killer argument. I accept the line drawn by “in my body/outside my body.” But similarly, it’s acceptable to draw a line between human and non-human that doesn’t depend on your view of whether abortion is murder. Those in favour of abortion rights would draw a line between human being and fetus. A meat eater may choose to draw a line between human and animal. A pro lifer thinks a fetus is a human being so abortion = murder. A rabid vegetarian thinks murdering is murdering, animal or man. The point I’m trying to make (not very well, it seems) is that both hinge on the same thing; _my_ perceptions shaping _your_ behaviour. I’m a vegetarian and view all meat as murder, so no one should be allowed access to meat. I am a pro lifer and view all abortions as murder, so no one should be allowed access to one. Same, same, from where I’m sitting. If you feel that meat is murder you have the right to not eat any. If you feel abortion is murder you have the right not to have one. In neither case should your ‘perception’ impinge on my right to eat meat or access abortion. Those are my choices to make, as I have to live with the consequences, not you. For me it will always boil down to some trying to impose their beliefs on others. As for the argument, ‘it’s the law, suck it up’, being unfeeling, or cliche in some way, I would point out for centuries women have been forced to suck it up, I have no problem telling pro lifers to ‘suck it up’ it’s the law! Then I tell them to come see me in a few hundred years, and we’ll talk!😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/254 "2011-12-24T15:22:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > OTOH I doubt even the most adamant pro choice person would get behind infanticide as a lifestyle option. Some do. Let me introduce you to [Peter Singer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer), the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and Laureate Professor at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/255 "2011-12-24T18:06:09Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Some do. Let me introduce you to [Peter Singer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer), the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and Laureate Professor at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne. He doesn’t think it’s a good lifestyle option, he just says it isn’t as wrong as killing a fully grown person. It’s a pretty inflammatory statement on it’s own; you don’t have to tart it up for drama’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/256 "2011-12-24T19:18:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nobody actually holds this view. Creating bizzare hypotheticals is hardly going to convince anyone of anything. > > How about this, at the other end of the process: if aborting a baby in the womb is okay, why can’t I throw a newborn out with the trash? What’s so magic about passing through a vagina that transforms a moral nothing into a person? > > These are all ways of getting at the fact that at one end of a gradual process - transformation of some cells into a human - the products have no moral worth, and at the other end, they do. If a guy ejaculates into a kleenex, he flushes millions of potential people without the slightest qualm; OTOH I doubt even the most adamant pro choice person would get behind infanticide as a lifestyle option. Somewhere between those two is the cut-off - anti-choice types make in conception. My own view is that it is capacity for conciousness. Biologically a fertile Chicken egg is not a chicken, An animal’s (such as a horse)fetus is not a horse, a pollinated apple Blossom is not an apple, it is the same with Humans, until it can be recognized as a person, it is just going to be a person. A frozen Embryo is not a person. The so called pro-life stand is just religious thinking. If a person told them they would sell them a foal of a prize race horse, and they gave him/her a fetus, they would not accept it as a race horse, nor would they expect to pay the price for 36 fertile chicken eggs when they ordered 36 chickens for a chicken dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/257 "2011-12-25T18:33:35Z")
Welcome to the forum, **lockmat**. Unfortunately, I’m one of the posters you may not like. This is a very interesting discussion on LOTS of issues. Thing is, since your source is the \*flawed Ray Comfort, I’m assuming that the reasons for this thread are mainly religious ones. To this day, I still can not understand how a believer can not be FOR abortion, since your god has performed the most abortions-- more than the US-- and continues to allow war, rape and murder, and these things beleivers call “tests of faith”. :rolleyes: You worship a murderer, to be more like him, why not support abortion? Oh, that’s right. Rights for women, who rank just above beasts in the bible., As far as shooting Hitler, sure, why not? It WOULD NOT have stopped the Nazis in the first place. I don’t think Hitler personally invented anti-semitism. Himmler (a worse guy IMO) would have killed just as many Jews, if not more. - - by “flawed”, I mean the man who receives over 100 thousand emails in one day to tell him about bananas, point him to Google, remind him to remember third-grade science, he still makes videos as ridiculous as that and keeps both vids up and running on his website. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/258 "2011-12-26T03:32:48Z")
Excuse me, but I feel like going out for an abortion tomorrow – anyone want too come with me? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/259 "2011-12-26T09:44:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Excuse me, but I feel like going out for an abortion tomorrow – anyone want too come with me? Can I at least get you pregnant, first? ---
**Author:** ![lockmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lockmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lockmat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/260 "2012-01-06T18:08:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because a fetus is a thing not a person, and therefore her wishes take precedence. What you are actually calling for is for the woman to be punished - which of course is the real point of the anti-abortion movement, the torment of women. A fetus is a person. I’d say the pictures from the Duggar’s recent baby that died is undeniable evidence. I think the term fetus can be misused as an excuse to not call it a person. Is a “toddler” or an “infant” not a “person?” pictures (warning, the link displays the hand of the dead baby): [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/duggars-take-heartbreaking-pictures-with-stillborn-baby-girl/](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/duggars-take-heartbreaking-pictures-with-stillborn-baby-girl/) I like this quote: Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning. > [@DianaG](#): > > Have Ray try both out and get back to us. I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > **lockmat** , > > You did not answer my question. What punishment should my Jewish mother suffer in the name of your Christian beliefs because she had an abortion? Your theology is not mine. I am Reform Jewish. We do not believe a woman should be forced into a pregnancy nor do we believe that life begins at conception. Why should YOUR religious beliefs overrule ours? Particularly in so private a matter? If you’re going to have the unbelievable chutzpah to evoke Jewish history for your own twisted ends you should at least know something about the subject. I am not advocating life in prison or the death penalty for abortions, it’s not in our laws. Right now my main concern is not what the proper punishment for abortion should be. My main concern is saving the baby and also helping a mother through an unwanted pregnancy. My desire for your Jewish mother is that she believe in her Messiah, Jesus Christ for her salvation. He has all the requirements for being the Messiah, starting with the proper geneology of the seed promise by God in the first chapter of Matthew. God will forgive her of her sins if she confesses her sins, repents, and believes in Jesus. The idea that “your theology is not mine” does not really hold in the real world. Murder is wrong regardless of religion or personal convictions. I cannot say my “my religious belief is that murder is ok. Why should anyone elses religious beliefs overrule mine?” That is not my beliefs, I’m just using that as an example. * * * And sorry to everyone for going MIA. I did not have internet access or the time to respond at the moment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=14)