# Are You a Good Person? Documentary that discusses this subject and Abortion. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998 "2011-12-21T21:17:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/41 "2011-12-21T22:39:49Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > I’m sorry. I was wondering if y’all discouraged these types of threads. I did not read the terms and conditions when I registered. I just figured it if I put it in the correct forum and was not solely trying to be devisive, it’d be ok. And sorry it took me so long to give a synopsis, guess I’m not as quick a typer as I thought. It’s not in the official rules and you’re not being punished, but we discourage it because it’s kind of inconsiderate. Anyway hopefully the discussion can move on from here. In case you didn’t see my other post, I also wanted to explain that Straight Dope moderators and administrators also post on the site. Our official actions are set off by post titles or tags that say ‘Moderating’ or ‘Modding’ or things like that. Our other posts are no different from everybody else’s. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/42 "2011-12-21T22:49:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can I be a “Good Person” if I am not a Christian, **lockmat**? Or more topically, can someone be a good person if they’re pro-choice? ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/43 "2011-12-21T22:49:27Z")
My brother works in neuroscience. Last year he was talking about abortion issues and what his science told him about it. Basically he emphasized that a fetus’s brain is not really wired to do anything resembling consciousness until the 3rd trimester and that a person on life support we would consider brain dead medically would not be lesser brain activity-wise than a 2nd trimester and earlier fetus. The whole concept of first and second trimester abortion being wrong is based upon religious concepts of the human soul, one that inexplicably believes in a soul that begins at conception for humans but never for any animal even if that animal has superior intelligence to some humans. Also these people tend to support all sorts of brutality in war toward humans, some that are pregnant so long as they can view it only through the prism of their domestic media. It’s a cheap exploit of human compassion. Were wired to be empathetic to our babies and it’s easy or even natural to transfer that to early stage human fetuses. Right and wrong aren’t the survival instincts your animal ancestry gave you though, no matter how much you enshroud it in misogynistic elements of your cultural traditions and religious dogma. Pushing your emotional buttons empowers religious organizations and political groups. That’s why this is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/44 "2011-12-21T22:52:37Z")
“Sorry, did not intend to say that people who have come to conclusions have never thought through it. I agree, many have, but I believe many have not.” And do you further assume that all of the persons who have considered the issue are of one opinion, and the ‘none-thinkers’ of another? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/45 "2011-12-21T22:52:51Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > If you search for Full Interview Alicia on youtube, they have that one posted. I’m watching it now and one minute in, I’m wondering: why are there so many rapid camera cuts? Just reviewing the first 60 seconds of the discussion with Alicia (0:09 to 1:09), I count _nine_ camera cuts, including a few side-by-side images straight out of _The Thomas Crowne Affair_. I’ve seen music videos that were more static. I don’t buy this as the “full” interview, by which I’d mean a full continuous _unedited_ interview, and if Comfort has two (possibly three) cameras trained on Alicia, I can picture that being enough of a distraction and discomfort to her to help his cause, making her confused and uncertain enough to be manipulated. Heck, I’m confident and articulate in my pro-choice views, but if there were two or three cameras stuck in my face (and moving around, as some parts of the video indicate), I can picture myself stammering at moments, which a determined editor can easily turn into an impression of utter uncertainty. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/46 "2011-12-21T22:53:30Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > No, he does not equate that to being a bad person. Part of the movie is trying to explain that although we may be a “good” person, we’ve all broken God’s law and the consequence of breaking his law (just as it is on this earth) is to receive punishment for it. What punishment do you propose for my mom after she had an abortion because she was raped? Why should she be punished in the name of YOUR religious beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![lockmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lockmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lockmat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/47 "2011-12-21T23:02:14Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The ADL has this to say about this idiotic and offensive piece of propaganda: > > Ray Comfort can kiss my Jewish ass. People who cannot tell the difference between an actual living, breathing human being and a fertilized egg are morally bankrupt nut cases. I like this quote: Something nonhuman does not become human by getting older and bigger; whatever is human must be human from the beginning. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since this isn’t the forum for movie reviews, are we debating Hitler, abortions, aborting Hitler, or what exactly? What idea are you trying to get across here, **lockmat**? To discuss abortions and the gospel of Christ. > [@Marley23](#): > > Based on your summary, no, I don’t think that’s what he’s doing. It sounds like he is trying to show that people find impersonal mass killing more tolerable than killing an individual up close. In the immediate context, you’re exactly right. > [@](#): > > No, it’s not kind of like that. The comparison is so vile that I’m not sure it’s worthwhile to explain it. If you didn’t see it for yourself, I don’t know if anybody else could make you see it. Do you actually think this is a sensible comparison? The reason it is similar is because in both instances, someone is giving thought to killing a human. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Do you want to punish women for having sex? no > [@](#): > > Do you want to condemn children to be born to parents who don’t want them and are financially and emotionally unprepared for parenthood? Condemn? No? There are waiting lists of people who want to adopt. The parents may not want them, but others do. > [@](#): > > Do you claim to want to reduce abortions but fight any attempt at sex education or distribution of contraceptives, revealing yourself as really only interested in yelling at people outside of doctors’ offices? I have never protested outside a dr.s office, neither do I advocate it, nor do I advocate violence in opposing abortion. Also, as I said, someone who uses a condom can still get pregnant and have an abortion. > [@](#): > > Do you, perhaps, also cheer wildly at the concept of death, think that slaughtering Arabs for sport is great, and get a little aroused whenever a gay teenager is beaten by his classmates? No to both of those. > [@](#): > > What I’m getting at is…are YOU a good person? In God’s eyes (and mine), no I am not a good person. I can be very selfish at times, but I am fighting it. I do not claim to be a good person. * * * The pro-choice stance is that it’s a woman’s right to choose to kill her own baby because it’s her baby, right? A couple of things to think about: - A baby looks very much like a baby at only six weeks. - Parents legally have parental rights up to the the age of 18. At what point do we stop giving parents rights to kill their child? Right now they are allowed to kill their child while it is in the womb. What is the difference between a baby inside the womb and one that is out of it, besides the fact that it’s in the womb? Are they both not human? If they are both human, why do we not allow parents the right to kill their child up to 18 years old. It is after all, \*their \*child. - Also, this is ironic. If someone murders a woman who is pregnant, he is not only guilty of killing the woman, but also the baby. Why is it ok for the woman to kill it on her own if she desires, simply because it is her own? So a woman who is on her way to get an abortion will not be punished for killing her child. Yet the man who kills her and the baby while she is on her way to kill it will be guilty of both. - It is important to understand I am against the murder of human **life** (not simply a baby). It is scientific fact that human life begins at conception. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/48 "2011-12-21T23:06:13Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > Part of the movie is trying to explain that although we may be a “good” person, we’ve all broken God’s law and the consequence of breaking his law (just as it is on this earth) is to receive punishment for it. Thing is: [ul] [li]There’s no reason to think god(s) exists (or even can exist), and many to think that they don’t.[/li] [li]There’s no reason to think that any gods are good even if they do exist.[/li] [li]Gods if they _did_ exist have no moral or legal authority over us. And “might makes right” is pretty much the opposite of “good”.[/li] [li]Opposing abortion is barbaric, effectively the same as raping a woman for nine months.[/li] [li]The actual effects of the anti-abortion crusade have always been cruelty inflicted on women and on the children they are forced to bear; there’s nothing moral about that.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/49 "2011-12-21T23:10:46Z")
“Hello, I’m brand new here, and completely self righteous, obsessed and fanatical. If you don’t agree with me you will go to hell and burn in a fire for eternity. I am a good Christian. I am Christ-like. When the rapture comes I’ll be proven right. I will, you’ll see. You’ll see. Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is good.” ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/50 "2011-12-21T23:11:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Thing is: > > [ul] > [li]Opposing abortion is barbaric, effectively the same as raping a woman for nine months.[/li][/ul] Okay, _this_ is a little over the top - like comparing abortion to the holocaust. The rest of your post is uncharacteristically reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/51 "2011-12-21T23:12:58Z")
**lockmat** , I realize this makes a little work for you, but instead of responding like this: [QUOTE=Marley23] Based on your summary, no, I don’t think that’s what he’s doing. It sounds like he is trying to show that people find impersonal mass killing more tolerable than killing an individual up close. In the immediate context, you’re exactly right. No, it’s not kind of like that. The comparison is so vile that I’m not sure it’s worthwhile to explain it. If you didn’t see it for yourself, I don’t know if anybody else could make you see it. Do you actually think this is a sensible comparison? The reason it is similar is because in both instances, someone is giving thought to killing a human. [/QUOTE] Please do it this way: [QUOTE=Marley23] Based on your summary, no, I don’t think that’s what he’s doing. It sounds like he is trying to show that people find impersonal mass killing more tolerable than killing an individual up close. [/quote] > [@lockmat](#): > > In the immediate context, you’re exactly right. [QUOTE=Marley23] No, it’s not kind of like that. The comparison is so vile that I’m not sure it’s worthwhile to explain it. If you didn’t see it for yourself, I don’t know if anybody else could make you see it. Do you actually think this is a sensible comparison? [/quote] > [@lockmat](#): > > The reason it is similar is because in both instances, someone is giving thought to killing a human. You can do this by typing out the quote tags this way: [noparse] > [@](#): > [/noparse]. I’ll go back and edit your post. We have a rule against altering text inside of the quote tags because it can confuse people about who is saying what. I realize you weren’t trying to mislead anybody. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/52 "2011-12-21T23:13:35Z")
**lockmat** , If a fertilized egg is a human being then do you consider ending an ectopic pregnancy murder? What about chemical pregnancies? Is the failure of a fertilized egg to plant the same thing as ending a life? ---
**Author:** ![lockmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@lockmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lockmat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/53 "2011-12-21T23:13:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I imagine that every baby aborted is another Hitler, ready and willing to spring out of the womb fully formed (mustache too!) and kill some Jews. Abortion is not only a moral good, it should be forced on everyone because it prevents another Hitler from being born. And you’re not for Hitler, are you? No, what Hitler did was wrong. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can I be a “Good Person” if I am not a Christian, **lockmat**? You can do things that are good. A criminal can be a criminal and still do good things, no? Yet a judge will still make him pay his fine. A Christian will continue to sin (do bad things), but because of his belief that Christ paid the penalty for his sins, he has eternal life. I have absolutely no righteousness of my own in God’s eyes. I depend on Jesus’. > [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > “Sorry, did not intend to say that people who have come to conclusions have never thought through it. I agree, many have, but I believe many have not.” > > And do you further assume that all of the persons who have considered the issue are of one opinion, and the ‘none-thinkers’ of another? I agree, there are also people who are pro-life that have not thought of it much either. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > What punishment do you propose for my mom after she had an abortion because she was raped? Why should she be punished in the name of YOUR religious beliefs? I agree with what Ray Comfort says in the video. Which is worse, rape or murder? Why should we punish the innocent human baby because of the sin of the father? Why can’t she adopt it out instead of killing it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/54 "2011-12-21T23:15:16Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Okay, _this_ is a little over the top - like comparing abortion to the holocaust. Why? In both cases a woman’s body is being forcibly and intimately used for another. And in fact forced impregnation on a large scale is widely considered a war crime and is a common component of genocide; kill the men, children & old women and rape & impregnate the young women. Right out of chimpanzee behavior or the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/55 "2011-12-21T23:18:12Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > Why should we punish the innocent human baby because of the sin of the father? Why can’t she adopt it out instead of killing it? Because a fetus is a thing not a person, and therefore her wishes take precedence. What you are actually calling for is for the woman to be punished - which of course is the real point of the anti-abortion movement, the torment of women. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/56 "2011-12-21T23:19:28Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > "Hello, I’m brand new here, and completely self righteous, obsessed and fanatical. Personal comments like this aren’t allowed in Great Debates. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/57 "2011-12-21T23:20:42Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > I agree with what Ray Comfort says in the video. Which is worse, rape or murder? Have Ray try both out and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/58 "2011-12-21T23:21:30Z")
**lockmat** , You did not answer my question. What punishment should my Jewish mother suffer in the name of your Christian beliefs because she had an abortion? Your theology is not mine. I am Reform Jewish. We do not believe a woman should be forced into a pregnancy nor do we believe that life begins at conception. Why should YOUR religious beliefs overrule ours? Particularly in so private a matter? If you’re going to have the unbelievable chutzpah to evoke Jewish history for your own twisted ends you should at least know something about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/59 "2011-12-21T23:21:43Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > The pro-choice stance is that it’s a woman’s right to choose to kill her own baby because it’s her baby, right? Well, actually, the key element is not specifically that it’s a baby, or even that it’s _her_ baby, but that it’s an unwanted object growing inside her body. The nature of the object, be it a baby, a person, a human, a life, whatever, is secondary to the larger issue of her having the right to make these decisions regarding her own health, and the alternative (abortions are banned) is not a better solution, or at least not _enough_ of one for society to impose on the individual in this way, even if the society really wanted to. > [@](#): > > A couple of things to think about: > > - A baby looks very much like a baby at only six weeks. So? > [@](#): > > - Parents legally have parental rights up to the the age of 18. At what point do we stop giving parents rights to kill their child? I’m okay with it being at birth. At that point, the parents can legally transfer parental rights and a responsibilities to others, an option that is not available before birth. > [@](#): > > Right now they are allowed to kill their child while it is in the womb. What is the difference between a baby inside the womb and one that is out of it, besides the fact that it’s in the womb? I’m prepared to shrug and say “no difference, aside for the rather massively significant one of it’s location inside the body of another person.” > [@](#): > > Are they both not human? Sure, why not? > [@](#): > > If they are both human, why do we not allow parents the right to kill their child up to 18 years old. It is after all, \*their \*child. Well, as before, I’m okay with birth being the demarcation. And I don’t see how a pro-choice position leads to one being okay with killing 17 year-olds. Heck, Canada currently has had _no_ abortion law for over 20 years, but I’m not aware of any efforts or inclinations to issue a license-to-kill to upset parents. > [@](#): > > - Also, this is ironic. If someone murders a woman who is pregnant, he is not only guilty of killing the woman, but also the baby. Why is it ok for the woman to kill it on her own if she desires, simply because it is her own? So a woman who is on her way to get an abortion will not be punished for killing her child. Yet the man who kills her and the baby while she is on her way to kill it will be guilty of both. It’s not really ironic; pregnancy is a known aggravating factor in cases of domestic abuse and murder (i.e. if a woman is being beaten by her husband or boyfriend, she likely to keep on being beaten and possibly killed if she gets pregnant with a child he doesn’t want but she will not abort). I don’t know offhand how many cases have been prosecuted for assaults causing abortion on a woman who was actually on her way to an abortion clinic, though. I get that it’s supposed to _sound_ like some bizarre legal quandary, like shooting a person who is falling from a tall building, but I don’t find it all that compelling. > [@](#): > > - It is important to understand I am against the murder of human **life** (not simply a baby). It is scientific fact that human life begins at conception. Yeah, but some of us look at the larger issues of what kinds of societies we want to live in and what kinds of freedoms we want to have. And, to be blunt, pregnancies are not so rare (and the allegedly punishing God is not so proven) that society has a compelling _need_ to force all of them to completion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998/60 "2011-12-21T23:22:46Z")
> [@lockmat](#): > > In the immediate context, you’re exactly right. I know. 😉 So it has nothing to do with trimesters. It’s a twist on the old saying “one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.” > [@](#): > > The reason it is similar is because in both instances, someone is giving thought to killing a human. I guess we need to start from the beginning here: you realize that most pro-choice people do not consider a fetus to be a human being, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-good-person-documentary-that-discusses-this-subject-and-abortion/606998.md?page=4)