# Are You A Left-Wing Extremist? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 5, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738 "2007-03-05T22:42:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/1 "2007-03-05T22:42:06Z")
Per columnist/blogger [Joe Klein](http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/03/since_you_asked.html): > [@](#): > > A left-wing extremist exhibits many, but not necessarily all, of the following attributes: > > 1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. > > 2. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. > > 3. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. > > 4. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. > > 5. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. > > 6. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). > > 7. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. > > 8. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. > > 9. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. > > 10. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. > > 11. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. > > 12. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. > > 13. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. > > \ > > bear in mind, the characteristics above should be regarded as tendencies, not cast-in-stone beliefs. I’ve added the numbering, for easy reference. But other than that, the quote is as in the original. My extremist status: 1. I’d disagree with the ‘fundamentally’ part. But under Bush, the U.S. has been a negative force in the world. 2. No, but it’s its primary driver, these days. 3. A yawning case of excluded middle. But it’s certainly reflective of the Bushies’ tendency to want to preserve our status as sole global hegemon into the indefinite future. That’s imperialism, and it’s American imperialism, even though it doesn’t originate from a broad-based American _desire_ for hegemony. 4. Whose baby _was_ this war, anyway?! No matter what our NATO allies do, it’s our responsibility to make up the difference between what they can do, and what’s needed. 5. No indeed! I’m still going with stuff like the franchise, the First Amendment, _habeas corpus_, and stuff like that. 6. I’ll go with ‘unfair aspects that need improvement.’ 7. Their _existence_ isn’t, but their _degree_ is. 8. I’ll believe America’s _really_ a democracy when legislation without any public support, but lots of business backing, rarely gets anywhere in our legislatures. Until then, I’ll believe it’s got the form of a democracy, but only a portion of the substance. 9. Corporations are fundamentally _amoral_. They will do good, or evil, as it benefits their perception of their economic interests. 10. Who needs a conspiracy? The interests of multibillion-dollar corporations diverge considerably from those of ordinary citizens. And unlike with ordinary citizens, the money they spend to influence the political process isn’t money they’ll never see again; it’s an investment that, by and large, they get a damned good return on. This difference gives them enormous political clout, and enables them to have an outsized impact on how the world is run. Power follows money. And in other news, dog bites man. 1. For example?? 2. I restrict my mockery to the leaders of a religion whose Savior said, “love your enemies,” but whose leaders engage in a mix of hate and ridicule of their perceived enemies; whose holy book says “perfect love casts out fear,” but whose leaders engage in routine fearmongering; whose Scripture says that “the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control,” but whose leaders have stopped bearing fruit a long time ago, if they ever did. 3. Dunno about ‘intolerant,’ but ‘harsh’ and ‘vulgar’? Damned skippy. So, how’m I doing? Since Klein says ‘tendencies’ towards, rather than cast-in-stone belief in, each of these thirteen points will suffice, I probably qualify, in Klein’s mind, on every point but #6. Guess I must be one of them [America-haters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7140770&postcount=49). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/2 "2007-03-05T22:58:13Z")
1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. Since I didn’t know about the meeting where 300 million of us met in an enormous room and decided if trucks using interstate highways should have stickers certifying periodic tire-tread inspections, I guess I’m a left-wing extremist ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/3 "2007-03-05T23:12:18Z")
1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. Yes, it is. It hasn’t always been, but it is now. 1. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. No. It’s caused by the greed and myopia of Islamic radicals. But when you interfere in other peoples’ affairs, shit happens. 1. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. No. It was an individual case of monumental stupidity. And stubbornness. 1. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. I don’t even know what that means. Is it about potentates coming together to divide and gerrymander the world? 1. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. Private property is the best liberal idea in human history. Taxation is a conservative idea, intended to ensure the viability of the king. 1. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). Sure it’s unfair. So what. 1. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. Crime is the fault of government. There is nothing about poverty to fault. 1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. It isn’t. 1. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. As structured, they are. 1. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. I wouldn’t say that one corporate conspiracy controls the whole world, but coercive economics of government and business in cooperation controls a lot of it. 1. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. I don’t hear very many good conservative ideas, other than conservation of resources. 1. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. No. 1. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. Harsh? Sometimes, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/4 "2007-03-05T23:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. –believes in a corporate **conspiracy** that controls the world. Bolding mine. This one always gets me. I’m not sure if it’s used in order to ridicule the left, or because the people using it don’t know any better. I’m a committed left winger. I know plenty of people who are similarly left wing. I, and many of those people, are very critical of the power and influence that corporations wield in the world, and the way in which governments often serve corporate interests at the expense of the public interest. But neither i, nor most of the lefties i know, believe that this constitutes a conspiracy. I know that there’s no secret room where corporate leaders meet in order to torture working class dissidents with burning $100 bills, and i know that there’s no cabal of industrialists who send secret memos to world leaders telling them what to do. Calling the left’s objections to corporate influence a “conspiracy” theory is to fundamentally misunderstand it. As the left-wing extremist\* Noam Chomsky says, arguing that General Motors seeks to maximize profit, and that it does so partly by attempting to influence politicians and other decision-makers, is not a conspiracy theory; it’s institutional analysis. Chomsky believes that there are very few real, actual conspiracies in the political and corporate world (IIRC, he thinks the JFK assassination might qualify as a true conspiracy, one that hasn’t yet been solved). Most stuff that goes on can be understood by a fairly rational analysis of political and economic self-interest. - I’m using the term, in this case, not as a pejorative, but because (a) Chomsky is thought of by many as an archetypal extremist, and (b) he is, in fact, at or near the far left of political opinion. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/5 "2007-03-05T23:45:10Z")
Shouldn’t we ask a left-wing extremist what a left-wing extremist is? Anyway, while we’re waiting for one to show up, I’ll quiz myself: > [@](#): > > 1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. Currently, yes, fundamentally, no, but then I’m an American. Better to ask someone from another country. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. No, more a highly useful rallying point. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. But I DO believe it was an act of monumental stupidity. Fundamental imperialist nature, no. Iraq was not invaded by popular demand, and I don’t believe any particular crew other than a Bush-Cheney White House would have invaded Iraq at the time it did. > [@](#): > > 1. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. I’ll need to see some sort of explanation of this statement before commenting. > [@](#): > > 1. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. Since when is liberalism purely an economic issue? > [@](#): > > 1. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). All societies that I know of are fundamentally unfair to someone; why should this one be any different? > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. Not really, but as they exist as as an integral part of society, any solutions should look at the aspects of society that may promote increases in each. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. Well, it isn’t, but I don’t have any particular problem with that. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. I believe that corporations are fundamentally concerned with their own interests, which may not coincide with the interests of individuals. That’s not necessarily evil, but can be. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. Nothing controls the world, or ever could. > [@](#): > > 1. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. Who decides what constitutes a ‘good idea’? > [@](#): > > 1. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. I generally don’t do that, even though I am strongly pro-abortion choice and pro-gay marriage (or civil union). > [@](#): > > 1. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. I don’t do that either, for the most part, but point of order here: if the above is true, and if, lets say, Ann Coulter has recently referred to a prominent member of the Democratic Party as a “faggot”, can we agree that she is a right-wing extremist? So, 10 ‘no’, 2 ‘haven’t a clue’, one qualified ‘yes’: hey, I’m not a left-wing extremist after all. How disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/6 "2007-03-06T00:01:06Z")
Joe Klein was far more interesting when he was writing books about Woody Guthrie. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/7 "2007-03-06T00:19:28Z")
1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. At the moment, yes. 1. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. No, but it does make things much worse. 1. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. I think it was both. 1. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. _We_ ran out on _them_, so we could conquer Iraq. 1. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. :rolleyes: No. free speech, ending slavery, women’s rights, democracy,and innumerable other things are more important than an economic system. 1. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). **All** human societies are fundamentally unfair. 1. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. To a degree, yes; why else is it worse here than other places, and better here than others ? 1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. Not much of one. 1. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. Amoral usually, with a strong streak of outright evil. 1. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. “Conspiracy” implies it’s a secret; when I read news stories about corporate lobbyists writing laws to please themselves and handing them over the politicians to make official, that doesn’t seem very secret. 1. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. I don’t trust or respect conservatives; if I hear a “good idea” from a conservative, I immediately assume that it’s flawed or a trap or an outright lie. Even if it is a good idea they’ll misuse it anyway. 1. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. I regard them as the enemy of everything worthwhile in the world, and those who oppose gay marriage and abortion are bigots and sadists; of course I mock them and dismiss them. 1. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. Define your terms. And is it bad when moderate and conservatives use “harsh, vulgar, intolerant language” to attack the left, or is this another of those things that only matter if the left does it ? ---
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/8 "2007-03-06T01:17:55Z")
What a load of crap. It reads like the undereducated knee-jerk college student handbook. Let’s try it the other way round and see the inherent ridiculousness: A right-wing extremist exhibits many, but not necessarily all, of the following attributes: 1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally positive force in the world and that it is God’s will that we control the fate of other nations. 2. –believes that Satan is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. 3. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was an individual case of monumental stupidity, not the consequence of America’s president’s fundamental imperialistic nature. 4. –tends to blame others for our failures —i.e. the failure of homosexual pagans to fulfill their responsibilities in Iraq. 5. –believes that capitalism is the best idea in human history. 6. –believes American society is inherently fair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). 7. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of criminals and the poor. 8. –believes that America is a perfect democracy. 9. –believes that corporations are fundamentally working for the good of mankind. 10. –participates in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. 11. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from liberal sources. 12. –dismissively mocks minorities, especially those who are on welfare or are homosexual. 13. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or liberals. Love it or Leave it… ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/9 "2007-03-06T01:25:15Z")
He’s such a dipshit. I like his half-assed apology to Atrios. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/10 "2007-03-06T01:38:02Z")
Klein made a similar list of [characteristics of right-wing extremists](http://time-blog.com/swampland/2007/03/because_i_promised_and_you_see.html). I thought Atrios (who was the one originally accused of being a left-wing extremist, which Klein sort of took back) had the take-home message from the whole exercise: > [@](#): > > Anyway, as his commenters try to explain to him over and over again, the point is that to the extent that the people Klein was trying to caricature with his list of left wing extremist characteristics actually exist (stipulating for sake of discussion at the moment that they do), they aren’t members of congress, they don’t have prominent positions in the Democratic party, they don’t have columns in Time magazine, they don’t get invited to discuss the issues on CNN or NPR, they don’t write Op-Eds for the New York Times and, most relevant for this discussion, they aren’t even prominent dirty fucking hippie bloggers. > > On the flip side, the caricature he offers up of right wing extremists are members of Congress, prominent members of the Bush adminstration, run the Republican party, have columns in Time magazine, regularly come on CNN to discuss the issues, and pretty much define the right wing blogosphere. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/11 "2007-03-06T01:43:25Z")
I think Klein is tilting at windmills left behind by the Weather Underground. Someone needs to move him into this decade. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/12 "2007-03-06T01:50:19Z")
The stand out feature is the way Klein’s list is part of the general conservative push to identify conservatism with certain issues that are not inherently left/right. Look at the list: questions 1 to 4 are about US foreign policy. Question 8 is about the method for choosing a government. Questions 11 and 13 are about debating style and personality. Question 12 is about the same, plus religion. All sorts of governments are capable of imperialism. All those who feel disenfranchised question whether they live in a true democracy. Poor debating style etc is a characteristic of extremists, period. Various religions are associated with various parts of the political spectrum in various places. Questions 9 and 10 kind of indicate a left/right position, although I suspect that right wing survivalist nuts for example would have a poor opinion of corporations also. Questions 4, 5 and 6 are, to me, the only ones that would truly assist with identifying a position on a left/right spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/13 "2007-03-06T01:52:32Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. At the moment, yes. Fundamentally, no. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. No. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. No. It was monumental stupidity with elements of personal grandiosity (on the part of the President) and greed (by those around him). > [@](#): > > 1. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. No, but this one also contains embedded bullshit assumtions that our allies had “responsibilities” in Afghanistan to begin with or that they have “failed” by not fulfilling them. > [@](#): > > 1. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. I believe that the 1st Amendment to he US Constution is the best liberal idea in human history. Regulating capitalism is also a pretty good idea. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). Life itself is inherently unfair. The US tends to be less unfair than most places. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. I would say that problems of crime and poverty do not arise outside of a context of cultural and societal pressures. The alternative would be to decide that large blocks of people in identifiable strata of society are just inherently anti-social, amoral or lazy. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. The Constutution says it really isn’t a pure democracy. I prefer a Democratic Republic to the mob rule of direct democracy. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. Corporations are fundamentally amoral and self-interested, but “evil?” No, that implies an ideology. Corporations have no ideology. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. No. “Conspiracy” is the wrong word. They do it right out in the open. > [@](#): > > 1. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. I would need examples here. I can’t think of any good conservative ideas off the top of my head. > [@](#): > > 1. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. I mock bigots, regardless of their religious philosphies. I do not mock religious people who are not bigots (and notice how this item on the list implies that impatience with homophobes is in itself “intolerant”). > [@](#): > > 1. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. I use harsh, vulgar language while I’m eating breakfast or combing my hair. So fucking what? I don’t tailor it for conservatives, in particular, and certainly not moderates. I do tailor it for MORONS, who often are conservatives. I’m as loosey lefty as it gets. I know a lot of other lefties. I can’t think of anyone I’ve ever met who would fit Klein’s description. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/14 "2007-03-06T02:23:05Z")
Klein’s right wing list. I’m not a righty, but I’ll comment on my _perceptions_ of the right. > [@](#): > > A right-wing extremist exhibits many, but not necessarily all, of the following attributes: > > –believes that America is always, in every instance, the ultimate force of moral authority in the world. I think is an overstatement. They might not think America is moraly perfect but they don’t like to acknowledge that anyone else is better (either generally or specifically). > [@](#): > > –believes that Saddam Hussein was linked to 9/11—even if not directly, he was just that sort of guy. There are non-trivial numbers of conservatives who still believe this. I doubt it’s a majority anymore but it can’t be said that the wingnuts don’t believe it. > [@](#): > > –sees transnational non-governmental groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International as “the next threats” to U.S. sovereignty. Calls them Transies, derisively. I think they see Human Rights Watch and Amnesty international as meddlesome liberal do-gooders, not as threats to US sovereignty. > [@](#): > > –doesn’t hold a passport, as a matter of principle: there’s nothing over there except depravity. I’ve never encountered this attitude. I don’t think righties are any more averse to seeing the world than lefties. > [@](#): > > –believes that capitalism creates perfect justice, and that any attempt to tax or regulate it constitutes “social engineering.” (Doesn’t believe in evolution, but does believe in social darwinism.) Overstated (I doubt they would say it’s perfect), but they are defensive of capitalism and suspicious of government controls. I don’t know that they think much in terms of social Darwinism, but they do have some misplaced faith in the fairness of _lassez faire_ capitalism. > [@](#): > > –believes global warming is a left-wing myth. Less true than it used to be. They’re now shifting their stance to a denial that it’s caused by humans. > [@](#): > > –believes in the Second Amendment to the Constituion, but has some “problems” with the First. I don’t believe they would say they had “problems” with the 1st amendment. They just want to interpret it more tendentiously. > [@](#): > > –believes that any form of universal health insurance is socialism, even the tax credit system first proposed by the Heritage Foundation. This I think they do believe. > [@](#): > > –believes that there are inferior races. This I not only think they DON’T believe, I think it’s the most insulting contention on either list > [@](#): > > –believes that there are inferior religions. A lot of religious conservatives, unfortunately, absloutely do believe this. > [@](#): > > –believes in a global conspiracy led by Jewish bankers, Hollywood executives and journalists. No. I actually think the far right has become less and less anti-Semitic and tends to be very supportive of Israel. > [@](#): > > –believes, despite the above, that Israel is absolutely wonderful, and that when it achieves full dominion over its Biblical lands—especially Judea and Samaria—a great battle will be fought and Jesus will descend from the clouds. This is believed by a lot of evangelical Christians. No question. > [@](#): > > –believes that homosexuals are condemned to hell. Yes, with a “but.” Many of the most religiously conservative believe this, but they also believe it about anyone who isn’t a Christian (however they define it) and most would say that they believe gay people can be “saved” if they refrain from gay sex. Not that this is really all that enlightened either. > [@](#): > > –only receives news from Fox or right-wing radio talk show hosts. I personally know people for whom this is true. My inlaws, for instance. > [@](#): > > –believes Hillary Clinton is a dangerous radical. I don’t know how dangerous they really think she is. I do think she’s perceived as being more “radical” than she actually is. > [@](#): > > –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to mock liberals. Not all of them. My inlaws are very polite, civil, courteous people. Not like me at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/15 "2007-03-06T02:31:33Z")
[QUOTE=BrightNShiny] I think Klein is tilting at windmills left behind by the Weather Underground. Someone needs to move him into this decade. [/QUOTE] Indeed. ISTM (and to a lot of others, it’s hardly original with me) that a good chunk of the punditocracy, including Klein, are still fighting the battles of the 1960s and 70s, when there really _was_ a Radical Left that pissed off Middle America and made it hard for Dems to win elections. My thesis is that, to the extent this crowd survived the 1980s, the influence of all the left-wing interest groups was put to rest in 1992 with Clinton’s infamous Sister Souljah moment. The thing about that confrontation was that it was **effective** - that, since then, genuine lefty extremists have not had a place at the table, but have been relegated to the fringes of liberal dialogue, let alone our national discourse. They’re so invisible that the right, in order to find lefty extremists to dump on, has to go around dredging up people like Ward Churchill that most liberals have never even heard of. Yet the DLC crowd - and many pundits, including Klein as best as I can tell - see an ongoing need to Sister Souljah…well, who, exactly? That’s what we’ve been trying to figure out for years. _Who are_ these dangerous lefties who would discredit the broader cause of liberalism if not slapped down by the more moderate center-left types? They never quite say. But like Bucky Dent with his scale model of Fenway, the DLC crowd seems to need to re-live that Sister Souljah moment over and over again, even if there’s no Sister Souljah worth the trouble of confronting. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/16 "2007-03-06T02:33:29Z")
Plus, the Atrios quote that **DoctorJ** brought into the discussion pretty much nails the relative positions of the extremists on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/17 "2007-03-06T03:27:57Z")
Fun! I’ve been called a left-wing extremist before, but the people who called me that were conservatives I was arguing against at the time. 1. – **believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world.** Not really. It’s both a positive and negative force, but the negative side weighs a lot more heavily than it should. 2. – **believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism.** In general? Nobody believes that. As far as the Islamic radicalism that exists today being caused by American imperialism, I don’t really believe that either. But American actions have angered and hurt a lot of people, who have become disillusioned and more open to radical Islam than they otherwise would be. 3. – **believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature.** There’s a chance that this one could be pinned on me. I don’t think the US has a fundamental imperialistic nature. I don’t know how anyone could know about how it was founded and think that. But I do think if the culture in the US were different, the invasion of Iraq wouldn’t have happened. It’s not just an isolated mistake because it’s a larger cultural problem. 4. – **tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan.** I don’t know enough about this to comment. 5. – **doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history.** Okay, I definitely fit this one. It doesn’t even come close to the best. The best is something closer to “Love your neighbor as yourself”. 6. –**believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement).** Life is fundamentally unfair. But I think American society is less fair than it should and could be. I suppose that’s a yes then. 7. – **believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society.** Poverty, yes, but not as much crime. 8. – **believes that America isn’t really a democracy.** Technically it isn’t. I don’t think that’s what this guy means though. Using the normal definition, I hope the US is still a democracy. 9. – **believes that corporations are fundamentally evil.** Not quite, but these days they’re closer to evil than good. 10. – **believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world.** Nope. 11. – **is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources.** Nope. 12. – **dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage.** I am a person of faith. I dunno, maybe this applies to me. I’ve made fun of people like Jack Chick and Pat Robertson. 13. – **regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives.** Nope. I get the feeling that this guy would say I’m somewhat of an extremist, even though I don’t think I am. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/18 "2007-03-06T03:53:31Z")
So now that we can identify Left-Wing Extremists, what happens now? Does Joe Klein have some sort of goal or strategy in mind that this identification process will facilitate? Are we supposed to call in our sightings, or keep a record of LWE migratory patterns, or what? “Joke Line”-- that’s pretty comical. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/19 "2007-03-06T04:09:14Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. –believes the United States is a fundamentally negative force in the world. Fundamentally? And absurd word choice that shows more about the person writing the questions than anything else. I do believe the United States is this century’s greatest killer, so far. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that American imperialism is the primary cause of Islamic radicalism. Another example of absurd word choices. Having no emperor, we can really not be imperialist. We do seem to be strongly motivated toward hegemony, under the current regime. However, Islam has its own cross to bear, so to speak. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that the decision to go to war in Iraq was not an individual case of monumental stupidity, but a consequence of America’s fundamental imperialistic nature. No individuality about it at all. This was a nearly unanimous choice of our legislature. Our government is actively pursuing the course of action desired by the majority of its citizens at the time the war began. I believed at that time, and continue to believe that action was racist, paranoid, cowardly, and stupid, but it certainly was popular at the time. > [@](#): > > 1. –tends to blame America for the failures of others—i.e. the failure of our NATO allies to fulfill their responsibilities in Afghanistan. I blame the United States for what the United States has done. Folks in England will have to take care of blaming England, and etc. > [@](#): > > 1. –doesn’t believe that capitalism, carefully regulated and progressively taxed, is the best liberal idea in human history. Well, aside from the fact that I am beginning to suspect that the knuckles of the questioner have inadequate ground clearance to qualify as entirely evolved, no, of course not. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes American society is fundamentally unfair (as opposed to having unfair aspects that need improvement). Okay, at least we agree about something. Of course pretty much every other country in the world is unfair, too. Fairness is a stupid concept, and anyone who expects it from the world is . . . sad. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that eternal problems like crime and poverty are the primarily the fault of society. Well, you can’t have a crime without a society, more or less as a matter of definition. (Ground clearance estimates go down again.) Poverty is amenable to some adjustment by organized efforts of groups of people within a society, but I am not sure it is reasonable to expect an “eternal” problem to be solved. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that America isn’t really a democracy. Pretty straight forward, really. No, it isn’t. Who thinks it is? > [@](#): > > 1. –believes that corporations are fundamentally evil. “Corporation n. an ingenious device for achieving personal profit, while avoiding personal responsibility.” ~ Ambrose Bierce ~ However, even as cynical a source as Bierce doesn’t claim that corporations are prevented from having responsibility. The actual karmic burden for corporate evil falls upon those who make the decision, and those who accept the profits, without questioning the methods used to obtain them. > [@](#): > > 1. –believes in a corporate conspiracy that controls the world. Does the world look to you like someone is in control? > [@](#): > > 1. –is intolerant of good ideas when they come from conservative sources. I am intolerant of self congratulatory bullshit, wherever it comes from, and this particular platter of manure is getting tediously predictable. > [@](#): > > 1. –dismissively mocks people of faith, especially those who are opposed to abortion and gay marriage. I am a Christian. Also, I am against the Government asserting rights over individuals. > [@](#): > > 1. –regularly uses harsh, vulgar, intolerant language to attack moderates or conservatives. I limit myself to the same level of polite discourse that I experience from others, and the conservatives often start off pretty harsh, then devolve through vulgar, and intolerant. However, I am a radical leftist. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738/20 "2007-03-06T04:18:37Z")
I’m just surprised at the tacit agreement displayed in this thread to answering these questions as if they may assist with categorisation on a left/right axis. If someone said to me “I’m trying to establish if you have the characteristics of an extreme lefty. Do you believe the US is a negative force in the world” my answer would be: “what the fuck does that have to do with it?” or (in a more mindfuck vein) “yes it is a negative force in the world because it totally fails to impose appropriate lassez faire principles to the extent it should” or maybe just “mu”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-left-wing-extremist/394738.md?page=2)