It was never a question of survival.
Some in this thread have said that they are hunky-dory with hurting other people (albeit indirectly) in order to save money.
I am simply trying to ascertain how far that goes.
Ok, thanks for being honest.
No, you’re reading me right. But I wouldn’t call it judgment. I’m not very interested in judging some random internet person. But I do think “fuck everyone if it means saving a buck” is a pretty vile philosophy.
No. It is everyone’s job as a citizen to engage each other in this kind of discourse. I’m not forcing anybody. We’re having a reasoned debate. That is very different from fundamentalist Christians.
And that is EXACTLY what I DID NOT say. I said, I will do what I have to to provide for my family. If I had the money to play moralistic games about what brand of footwear I buy for my kid, I would - but I don’t, so I buy what I can afford.
But you are not engaging anyone in any discourse - you’re passing judgement. At least that’s how it’s parsing for most of us reading your responses, IMO.
Addendum:
Shagnasty - I am sorry for your loss.
Gatopescado - looking at naked people has been considered a great way to spend time since time immemorial. Get down with your bad self. I don’t understand how someone could fault you in such an extreme way; but, if that was all it took to lose that person’s friendship, they probably would have found another reason soon enough anyway. Some people just look to kick someone to the curb for the slightest perceived infraction.
The problem with that, is that it just can’t be true. You don’t buy toys for your children? You don’t pay for internet message board subscriptions? Of course you do. And no one sleights you for that, especially not me. My question, and it is a sincere question, is where you personally draw the line. Apparently I misread your post to be that there really is no line. Mea Culpa. So educate me as to where and how you draw that line.
I’m sorry. I was upset about things others have said, and I should have directed by rhetoric at them. But the above is a sincere question, so maybe we can proceed with a discourse about that?
Richard Parker: I notice that you are throwing out a lot of questions about people’s morality and behavior, without offering anything about yourself. So how about it? Do you buy gas? Do you buy clothes manufactured who knows where under who knows what conditions? Same for food, cooking utensils, and just about everything else.
And how about the violence questions. Do you have a wife? Kids? How far would you go for them?
I don’t see any reason for people to tell you where their lines are, if you won’t share.
I don’t buy gas, but I live in NYC, so that’s hardly a moral statement. I do try to find out who manufactures my clothes, but occasionally I buy a shirt from Kmart. And yeah, I try to investigate where my food, etc., comes from. But to be clear, I’m not holding myself out as a moral paragon. Indeed, even if I were a complete hypocrite, it would have no effect on my point (to the extent that I have one), which is exploring whether people’s stated beliefs are consistent with their own sense of morality.
These are all violence questions. Sometimes they are explicitly violence questions (as with anti-union activities). Others just implied violence. Killing an innocent is just further along on the continuum. I am unmarried.
I really don’t care what anyone else chooses to do, but I do want to say that it’s really not that expensive to live thoughtfully…it all evens out. For instance, I may spend a little more on organic food, but I also buy produce from the farmer’s market, which is cheaper. I spend slightly more on free trade soaps/toiletries (although they’re really not much more expensive), but I use homemade cleaning products, which are super super cheap. I don’t spend money on paper towels, paper napkins, disposable diapers (we use cloth), disposable “feminine products”, a second car payment & maintenance expenses (we have one), or fast food. I stay at home with our kids and we manage on one medium-range income with plenty of leftovers for luxuries (internet, cable, toys for the kids, toys for us!). I mean you can probably buy a whole free trade wardrobe for what you’d save on diamonds alone! Seriously, though, think about all the disposable products you use and how much money that adds up to. Frugality, healthful living and thoughtful buying go hand in hand, in my opinion.
(And, like I said before, I admit I don’t make every purchase a “moral” one…cheap clothing is definitely one of my weaknesses.)
We need more people like you out there. It is your global thinking that will make a difference to our children’s children.
Please don’t patronize me.
I assume you mean actions, or beliefs as to what actions they’d take in certain hypothetical situations. In my case, I think the answer is largely no. I will avoid things when I’m aware of a moral problem, but I will not go out of my way to research my purchases.
As I posted above, I think it’s more effective trying to attack a problem at it’s root than at it’s outermost branches (the latter would be me). Say I refuse to buy an item because it’s made by slave labor (which I would certainly do). There are still millions of others out there to pick up the slack. But if I contribute, along with others, to a legal attack on the manufacturer, or the company that contracts the manufacturer, there’s a good chance the situation can be dealt with, especially if it entails damaging press coverage. Boycotts can work, too, but they can be really hard to get organized on a large scale.
I do not think I’d kill an innocent, even for my children, my wife, or myself. I don’t think I’d kill anyone, ever. But, you never know till you get there, I guess.
I have my hands full just making sure my own direct actions are moral; I don’t have the time or inclination to check out the moral background of everything I buy. It makes me angry that we’re involved in a war for oil, but I’m not going to ride my bicycle just to avoid burning “blood” gasoline. I’ve bought exactly two diamonds in the 35 years I’ve been married, not couonting Razorette’s engagement ring, and all were purchased from local jewelers. We have an ivory chess set my father picked up in Japan back in the 1950s. I own a leather jacket and my wife has one fur coat handed down by a great-aunt (I think it’s mink, not certain.) It’s never occurred to me to check the pedigree on any of it.
I assure you, I’m not. I don’t see where you’re getting that from me saying that they are all questions of violence.
I guess that just doesn’t make much sense to me. If buying decisions can be moral decisions, saying that you’re not going to go out of your way to learn about them is hardly a moral choice, is it?
I don’t disagree. I’m not sure that the marginal effectiveness of one consumer changing their pattern* is* lower than the marginal cost of a few minutes of careful thought, or a few cents more in payment. But I could see that being true. But it is a different position than “my family comes first no matter what.”
And if I DO SEE that it’s morally produced, I consider it a plus over one that I know is not, or one that I have no clue about. I don’t research companies looking to boycott, or whatever. And I don’t advertise to anyone else when I do the “right thing” in my purchasing, unless I know they’re also interested, then I point out to them products that are morally produced that I’ve found.
And I am pragmatic enough to accept that I simply can’t always afford to buy the things I’d prefer to buy and still look out for my family finances.
Well, thanks, but truthfully, my motives are not altruistic. I buy/live the way I do with two things primarily in mind: frugality and the health of my kids. I do a couple things that don’t directly benefit us (at least in the short term), but I honestly don’t go too far out of my way on those things.
When I’ve been saying “free trade,” I, of course, meant “fair trade.” I’m a bit brain dead today…sorry.
You don;t have to go too far. You are going the distance that befits your life and the life of your children. That is enough. If more people went even that far, we would be more well off than we are right now. You exemplify the fact thatyou need not do too much to make a difference.
ooooo0000HSOOW!
Well, I believe that certain crimes or actions can only be atoned by spilling blood, but otherwise, I suppose I’m pretty easy-going. (Or, Nihilistic. Depends on your point of view and my mood.)
If you want to look out for the welfare of your children, then teach them to be considerate of other people. We are all in this together. Try to imagine your child as a slave in a diamond mine. If you buy a diamond, you may very well be enslaving another woman’s child. Is that child any less precious?
[quote]
Phlosphr: Many people do care about those things, but lack the patience to do anything about it.**
How much patience does it take not to buy a diamond? How much time? How much energy? There are prettier stones anyway.
I understand if you have family jewelry that you want to wear and pass on. But I wouldn’t buy a diamond for any reason. I wish I knew more about the clothing that I buy. Anyone have any tips on how to tell other than “Made in USA”?