# Are you a penis-person or a non-penis person? Does the word "men" mean just "penis-people" or both? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 13, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992 "2010-10-13T13:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/1 "2010-10-13T13:38:57Z")
Are “men” and words that include it true or false generics? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/2 "2010-10-13T13:44:31Z")
It depends on the context. “Men and women are all people” - men there includes only penis-holders, only sort-of, because the whole “men and women” thing also includer the transgender and gender-chromosome trisomic and whatnots, but where in each of the two buckets do these not-quite-clearly-defined people go can have my family busy for a few Saturday afternoons (so far, transgender and trisomic go into “the bucket they identify with”, we’re currently discussing XY people who are phenotypically female due to a problem with their testosterone). “People have been cooking ever since a man figured out how to keep a fire, not even how to build it” - in there, ‘a man’ can be changed to ‘someone’ (and I reckon nowadays many writers would use exactly that), as the groin-status of that person is not important. It’s something that’s always bothered me about Charles Fucking-Idiot Xavier, that he keeps talking about “humans and mutants” and that implies that “mutants are not human”. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/3 "2010-10-13T14:16:39Z")
It depends on context. “Man” or “men” can be gender-specific, e.g. “I am attracted to men” or “Who is that man?” Or it can include all humans, e.g. “All men are created equal” or “Man is superior to beast.” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/4 "2010-10-13T14:32:13Z")
Next up: Run Something you do to exercise or something you score in baseball? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/5 "2010-10-13T14:34:33Z")
Admit it Annie, you just wanted tomake a penis post didn’t ya. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/6 "2010-10-13T15:01:28Z")
It took me a while to figure out how to interpret this poll, because like men can be a “boob man” or “leg man” I am a “cock girl” so I thought maybe it was asking if I was a person who liked penises or not. I got it now. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/7 "2010-10-13T15:22:19Z")
I was a little confused by the poll at first, too. I thought you were talking about transsexuals. If you’re speaking about “men and women”, obviously men only refers to males. If you’re talking about “mankind” or “to boldly go where no man has gone before” or “Man” in contrast to “Hobbit”, you’re talking about people. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/8 "2010-10-13T16:25:23Z")
I actually don’t use “mankind” or anything like that unless it’s a quote. I never trained myself or anything but just automatically use “humans” or “humankind”. It isn’t really a feminist thing so much as an acknowledgement that “men” just doesn’t really fit anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/9 "2010-10-13T16:28:38Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > It took me a while to figure out how to interpret this poll, because like men can be a “boob man” or “leg man” I am a “cock girl” so I thought maybe it was asking if I was a person who liked penises or not. > > I got it now. That’s how I interpreted it too. That would have been a way more interesting poll. So uh, while we’re on the subject, want to tell us a little more? ---
**Author:** ![Myrnalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@Myrnalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrnalene)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/10 "2010-10-13T17:07:15Z")
What the hell? Have you never heard of the terms transgendered and cisgendered? If that’s not what this poll is about, then what the fuck _is_ it about? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/11 "2010-10-13T17:22:25Z")
> [@Myrnalene](#): > > What the hell? Have you never heard of the terms transgendered and cisgendered? > > If that’s not what this poll is about, then what the fuck _is_ it about? It means does the word “Men” include women as historical apologists insists it does? You know, “All men are created equal,” “May the best man win” etc, are women included in that too? Or does it encompass only people with penises, which is the “modern” use of the word men? I don’t think it does. In pre-modern times when Men was used as the generic, it wasn’t used that way because people understood it to mean men and women both, but because only men were seen to matter. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/12 "2010-10-13T17:40:52Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > It means does the word “Men” include women as historical apologists insists it does? You know, “All men are created equal,” “May the best man win” etc, are women included in that too? Or does it encompass only people with penises, which is the “modern” use of the word men? > > I don’t think it does. In pre-modern times when Men was used as the generic, it wasn’t used that way because people understood it to mean men and women both, but because only men were seen to matter. The term “human” itself ultimately comes from the adjective form of the Latin word “homo” which means “man”, so by your logic human doesn’t refer to women either. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/13 "2010-10-13T22:20:53Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > It means does the word “Men” include women as historical apologists insists it does? You know, “All men are created equal,” “May the best man win” etc, are women included in that too? Or does it encompass only people with penises, which is the “modern” use of the word men? > > I don’t think it does. In pre-modern times when Men was used as the generic, it wasn’t used that way because people understood it to mean men and women both, but because only men were seen to matter. Agreed. Sometimes it’s quite obvious that ‘men’ doesn’t really mean all humans, such as ‘all men are created equal,’ except for female men and for slaves, of course. > [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > The term “human” itself ultimately comes from the adjective form of the Latin word “homo” which means “man”, so by your logic human doesn’t refer to women either. Does it? I can’t find anything online that says ‘homo’ meant ‘man’ except in the supposed generic sense, along with meaning ‘human.’ Are you saying it originally meant ‘male person’ and then become generic? That wouldn’t exactly make any difference, anyway - the English word ‘human’ clearly means people of any gender and age and always has. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/14 "2010-10-13T22:28:02Z")
Context, of course. No poll choice fits. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/15 "2010-10-13T23:03:43Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > > [@Myrnalene](#): > > > > What the hell? Have you never heard of the terms transgendered and cisgendered? > > > > If that’s not what this poll is about, then what the fuck _is_ it about? > > It means does the word “Men” include women as historical apologists insists it does? You know, “All men are created equal,” “May the best man win” etc, are women included in that too? Or does it encompass only people with penises, which is the “modern” use of the word men? Wow. That was frustrating. I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer at times, but I couldn’t parse what the OP was asking, even after reading it three times. I’m relieved I wasn’t the only one. Reading the poll options actually confused me more. I finally began reading the reply posts hoping someone would explain it in a way I would understand. So thank you, **elfkin477**. Now I can go back and respond to the poll. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/16 "2010-10-13T23:56:24Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > > [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > > > The term “human” itself ultimately comes from the adjective form of the Latin word “homo” which means “man”, so by your logic human doesn’t refer to women either. > > Does it? I can’t find anything online that says ‘homo’ meant ‘man’ except in the supposed generic sense, along with meaning ‘human.’ Are you saying it originally meant ‘male person’ and then become generic? > > That wouldn’t exactly make any difference, anyway - the English word ‘human’ clearly means people of any gender and age and always has. I don’t have a Latin textbook scanned and uploaded, but “homo” referred to “man.” The word human comes to English from the Latin adjective version of the word, “humanus”. The word meant man and it was used to refer to humanity in general. If you wish to call this historical apologism and claim that this was based on the idea that women weren’t people, go right ahead, but first tell me the last time a serious scholar translated _Homo sapiens_ as “wise person”. There is a lengthy, lengthy history of man referring to the species as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/17 "2010-10-14T01:21:19Z")
I don’t even think all penised people are “men” in a cultural sense. Gender is performative, and our culture puts particularly strict criteria on what makes a man - his performance is pretty strictly defined. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/18 "2010-10-14T01:24:48Z")
I really don’t like thinking of myself as a penis-person. To me, that implies that I like acquiring penises, like, say, being a shoe person means you like acquiring shoes. Or at least looking at them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/19 "2010-10-14T01:30:37Z")
What about King Missile? Cuz I just heard that song the other day. ---
**Author:** ![Terra1041](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Terra1041](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terra1041)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992/20 "2010-10-14T04:35:58Z")
I’m a male-to-female transsexual. I still have the anatomy of a typical male, but I live as and consider myself to be a woman. Other people who I associate with also consider me to be a woman. I consider “men” to be all people who identify themselves as male regardless of genitalia, and “women” to be all people identifying themselves as female regardless of genitalia. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-penis-person-or-a-non-penis-person-does-the-word-men-mean-just-penis-people-or-both/556992.md?page=2)