# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/721 "2014-07-24T04:26:50Z")
I’m totally a racist if Marley doesn’t like me. Which she doesn’t. So I’m a racist. I’m also a nazi and woman abuser. Because Marley. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/722 "2014-07-24T07:58:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Seriously? > > Check out some of the cites here I only needed to “check out” the first one, thanks. Take your _IQ & The Wealth of Nations_-citing “research” and fuck off, you racist fuck. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/723 "2014-07-24T08:16:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Also, what do you make of the fact that one of the ‘whitest’ countries in Sub-Saharan Africa, Ethiopia, also has one of the lowest scores on IQ tests? Ethiopia is _what_, now? Did you do a paper bag test or something? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/724 "2014-07-24T08:32:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Seriously? > > Check out some of the cites here, especially the Suryanarayana et al., 2011 one which estimates Indian IQ might be as low as mid-70s. The [Suryanarayana _et al_](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l5w7b-C5q48J:www.in.undp.org/content/dam/india/docs/inequality_adjusted_human_development_index_for_indias_state1.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=ubuntu) document does no such thing. There are no references in that entire paper to IQ, Intelligence or SAS scores. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/725 "2014-07-24T08:57:32Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m friends with people who are pretty seriously interested in the race/IQ stuff “If you’re friends with a bunch of racists, that’s a warning sign” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/726 "2014-07-24T09:06:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t think the assertion that “the cause of the test score disparity is [genetic]” is that weak, and I don’t think your arguments here have been particularly good. The claim that adoption studies show no racial gap in childhood, but a larger gap in adolescence and adulthood, is _exactly what we would expect_ if genetics were the causative factor, since heritability for most traits is much higher in adults than in children. It’s also _exactly what we would expect_ if societal and cultural factors were the cause. > [@](#): > > Similarly, because African and Indian immigrants to America are already pre-selected for education level, they don’t tell us much about the overall populations of their home countries. You still haven’t shown that this is the case, nor have you shown that it is any different for white immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/727 "2014-07-24T09:23:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Incidentally, people who argue that “there is no such thing as race or ethnicity” don’t seem to realize that they are effectively destroying any argument in favor of affirmative action. > (i.e., How can you give preferential treatment to black students if there is no such thing as being black?) It doesn’t matter if they’re _scientifically-valid_ groups, it matters that they were historic groupings. No-one’s arguing there’s no such thing as _social_ races, which is what were historically disadvantaged. Here, for instance, Affirmative Action is specifically targeted at Historically Disadvantaged Individuals (HDIs) - this includes Blacks, Coloureds, Asians and women & disabled people regardless of race. But “Blacks” includes Filipinos, and “Coloured” includes Chinese and Koreans and Native Americans - so much for any relation to scientific groupings. And _no-one’s_ arguing that there aren’t ethnicities, period. “Ethnicity” isn’t a genetic grouping. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/728 "2014-07-24T12:27:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s also _exactly what we would expect_ if societal and cultural factors were the cause. Why? Specifically, if the racial gap is entirely due to ‘social’ or ‘cultural’ factors, why would you expect the importance of those factors to increase with age? When, with most other traits, we see quite the opposite (i.e. heritability increases with age). > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You still haven’t shown that this is the case, nor have you shown that it is any different for white immigrants. They’re certainly pre-selected for _education_, I assume you’re not going to deny that. Compare the educational background of a typical Indian immigrant, to the educational achievement of average people in India. Same goes for Nigerians and most other African immigrants, their educational background is much higher than most of their compatriots. If education is related at all to IQ, then you’d expect highly educated Indian or Nigerian immigrants to be unrepresentative of their groups. As an analogy, if you wanted to know what Tamil IQ is like, you wouldn’t try to look at some Tamil professors at your nearest state university, you’d do better giving an IQ test to, say, the tea-plantation labourers in Sri Lanka, since they were brought over by the British as a labour force and presumably weren’t selected either positively or negatively for IQ. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/729 "2014-07-24T12:35:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ethiopia is _what_, now? Did you do a paper bag test or something? The papers I’ve seen estimate the West Eurasian component in the Ethiopian gene pool to be about 40%. Were you seriously unaware of that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/730 "2014-07-24T12:48:21Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why? > > Specifically, if the racial gap is entirely due to ‘social’ or ‘cultural’ factors, why would you expect the importance of those factors to increase with age? Because very young children have much less contact with culture and society at large than school-age children. If the factors don’t begin to be involved until the kid goes to school, then we wouldn’t expect to see a gap until the kids go to school, for example, and might get larger and larger as the individual is more involved in society outside the home. > [@](#): > > When, with most other traits, we see quite the opposite (i.e. heritability increases with age). They’re not “opposites” in this sense – they could both be involved. > [@](#): > > They’re certainly pre-selected for _education_, I assume you’re not going to deny that. Compare the educational background of a typical Indian immigrant, to the educational achievement of average people in India. Same goes for Nigerians and most other African immigrants, their educational background is much higher than most of their compatriots. If education is related at all to IQ, then you’d expect highly educated Indian or Nigerian immigrants to be unrepresentative of their groups. Even if this is true, how is this different than for white immigrants? > [@](#): > > As an analogy, if you wanted to know what Tamil IQ is like, you wouldn’t try to look at some Tamil professors at your nearest state university, you’d do better giving an IQ test to, say, the tea-plantation labourers in Sri Lanka, since they were brought over by the British as a labour force and presumably weren’t selected either positively or negatively for IQ. And if you wanted to know what Irish IQ is like, you wouldn’t try to look at Irish professors at your local American university – you’d give tests in Ireland, right? So why is it different for white immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/731 "2014-07-24T12:56:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The [Suryanarayana _et al_](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l5w7b-C5q48J:www.in.undp.org/content/dam/india/docs/inequality_adjusted_human_development_index_for_indias_state1.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=ubuntu) document does no such thing. There are no references in that entire paper to IQ, Intelligence or SAS scores. Sorry, I mis-stated the citation (the Suryanarayana document is cited _in_ the paper I wanted to refer to). It’s this paper here, where they look at PISA scores from two of India’s most advanced states, and they’re awful. > **[Spearman’s Law of Diminishing Returns and national ability](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886913001530)** > > This research examined Spearman’s Law of Diminishing Returns (SLODR) using national ability as the unit of analysis. National ability was estimated us… ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/732 "2014-07-24T13:14:53Z")
Since you seem to have trouble believeing the Ethiopian thing, here’s a blog post with links to a bunch of papers. > **[Ethiopian DNA studies and sundries.](https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/04/caucasian-africans/)** > > So, a little reading turned up that there was a big back migration across the Red Sea into Africa from the Arab peninsula back some time in the stone age. I’ve seen one paper estimate the ear… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/733 "2014-07-24T13:35:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Only 18% of the researchers asked responded to the poll – the author of the article doesn’t seem confident that this is a particularly representative sample. I would tend to agree that a poll to which 18% of researchers responded in not a representative sample. But the key question here is how absolute of a position it is that you’re defending. The significant thing about that poll is that 83% of those who responded thought there was some genetic element. So even if the poll was completely skewed to the maximum extent - meaning even if one were to assume that every single expert who did not respond thought there was 0% genetic basis (an extremely unlikely skew, even for an 18% response rate), that still means that 15% thought it was to some extent genetic. That does not suggest that the evidence for a genetic disparity is as non-existent as you keep insisting it is. [It’s worth noting at this point that perhaps the biggest nitwit arguing in these threads used to constantly go on about how he had papers attributed to him on PubMed - assuming that’s true that’s a pretty good indicator that you can be a complete idiot and get your name attached to some published papers. That said, I would have to think a survey of people who have “_had recent intelligence-related publications in Intelligence, Cognitive Psychology, Biological Psychology, Journal of Mathematical Psychology, Contemporary Educational Psychology, Journal of School-Psychology, New Ideas in Psychology, and Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology_” is worth something against amateurs who claim on message boards that they’ve read a lot about the topic.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/734 "2014-07-24T13:43:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would tend to agree that a poll to which 18% of researchers responded in not a representative sample. But the key question here is how absolute of a position it is that you’re defending. > > The significant thing about that poll is that 83% of those who responded thought there was some genetic element. So even if the poll was completely skewed to the maximum extent - meaning even if one were to assume that every single expert who did not respond thought there was 0% genetic basis (an extremely unlikely skew, even for an 18% response rate), that still means that 15% thought it was to some extent genetic. I’m not arguing aginst the idea of suspicions, feelings, etc. about the subject. I’m arguing against the _positive assertion_ that black people have inferior genes for intelligence. I’m arguing that there is no data that suggests that black people having inferior genes for intelligence is the best explanation for various test score disparities. Even looking at that poll, based on the percentages, most of the respondents would disagree with the assertion that black people having inferior genes for intelligence is the best explanation for various test score disparities. > [@](#): > > That does not suggest that the evidence for a genetic disparity is as non-existent as you keep insisting it is. It suggests nothing about the evidence that black people have inferior genes for intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/735 "2014-07-24T14:00:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not arguing aginst the idea of suspicions, feelings, etc. about the subject. To be clear, you’re saying that those experts are just bigots who are making assessments that are not based on any evidence or expertise? > [@](#): > > Even looking at that poll, based on the percentages, most of the respondents would disagree with the assertion that black people having inferior genes for intelligence is the best explanation for various test score disparities. You’re saying “best explanation” as if it means “sole explanation”. Otherwise your statement is completely false. Are you seriously unaware of the concept of something having two components? It’s not an either/or. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/736 "2014-07-24T14:04:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > To be clear, you’re saying that those experts are just bigots who are making assessments that are not based on any evidence or expertise? I have no idea if they’re bigots. > [@](#): > > You’re saying “best explanation” as if it means “sole explanation”. Otherwise your statement is completely false. You’ll have to prove this to me. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously unaware of the concept of something having two components? > > It’s not an either/or. Of course not. Right now, there’s no data that suggests that the best explanation for various test score disparities is inferior genes for intelligence among black people. We still cannot entirely explain the cause of test score disparities, and I think it’s very possible that multiple factors are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/737 "2014-07-24T14:13:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have no idea if they’re bigots. So what explanation are you offering for all these experts assuming something that has zero evidence for it? > [@](#): > > You’ll have to prove this to me. Huh? OK, let’s try this. [ol] [li]17% of experts say “0% of differences due to genes”[/li][li]100% - 17% = 83%[/li][li]Therefore, 83% of experts say \<\>“0% of difference due to genes”[/li][li]\<0% of difference is not one of the options.[/li][li]Therefore 83% of experts say \>“0% of difference due to genes”[/li][/ol] Need anything else, just let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/738 "2014-07-24T14:17:35Z")
Incidentally, **MrDibble** the fact that Ethiopians have a lot of West Eurasian genetics and low IQ scores is evidence _against_ **Chief Pedant** ’s claim, not for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/739 "2014-07-24T14:19:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So what explanation are you offering for all these experts assuming something that has zero evidence for it? I don’t know. Why do I have to explain it? > [@](#): > > Huh? OK, let’s try this. > > [ol] > [li]17% of experts say “0% of differences due to genes”[/li][li]100% - 17% = 83%[/li][li]Therefore, 83% of experts say \<\>“0% of difference due to genes”[/li][li]\<0% of difference is not one of the options.[/li][li]Therefore 83% of experts say \>“0% of difference due to genes”[/li][/ol] > > Need anything else, just let me know. This doesn’t follow for “best explanation” at all, from what I can tell. From looking at the numbers in the link, it seems like only 39% of the respondents would agree that genes are the “best explanation” (\>50% of the cause). The other ~60% chose some number \<= 50%, which means that they would disagree that genes are the “best explanation”. The question was different than the one I would ask, so we have to make suppositions translating these percentages to the assertion I am attempting to refute. I would ask respondents this: “Are inferior genes for intelligence in black people, on average, the best explanation for the ‘test score gap’?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/740 "2014-07-24T14:24:53Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m totally a racist if Marley doesn’t like me. Which she doesn’t. So I’m a racist. I’m also a nazi and woman abuser. Because Marley. I don’t think you’d actually hit a woman for fear of getting your ass kicked. You just talk shit about them on the internet. (Also, I’m a guy, but being wrong about everything is kind of your deal, so why quit now?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=38)