# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/741 "2014-07-24T14:28:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know. Why do I have to explain it? I would think you should have some explanation for the fact that a good percentage of experts in the field disagree with something you claim is open and shut. > [@](#): > > From looking at the numbers in the link, it seems like only 39% of the respondents would agree that genes are the “best explanation” (\>50% of the cause). The other ~60% chose some number \<= 50%, which means that they would disagree that genes are the “best explanation”. > > The question was different than the one I would ask, so we have to make suppositions translating these percentages to the assertion I am attempting to refute. I would ask respondents this: “Are inferior genes for intelligence in black people, on average, the best explanation for the ‘test score gap’?” This seems like willful stupidity to me, at this point. This is a good example of what I consider ignorance and dishonesty coming mostly from your side. Nothing Chief Pedant has said in any of these debates comes remotely close to this. But maybe I’m wrong. Answer this directly please: Is it really your impression that the position you are disputing is that “most of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? And that your claims about no evidence are not directed at claims that “some of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/742 "2014-07-24T14:35:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I would think you should have some explanation for the fact that a good percentage of experts in the field disagree with something you claim is open and shut. Where have I said this is an open and shut case? I’ve said multiple times that I think that the specific causes of the test score gap remain pretty open questions. > [@](#): > > This seems like willful stupidity to me, at this point. This is a good example of what I consider ignorance and dishonesty coming mostly from your side. Then I think you still don’t understand “my side”, or at least my own arguments. > [@](#): > > Nothing Chief Pedant has said in any of these debates comes remotely close to this. You don’t think **CP** has said that the evidence suggests that the best explanation for the test score gap is genes? If so, I think you’re wrong. > [@](#): > > But maybe I’m wrong. Answer this directly please: Is it really your impression that the position you are disputing is that “most of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? I dispute that the data suggests this, yes. I dispute that there is data/evidence that suggests that the best explanation for the test score gap is inferior genes for intelligence among black people. > [@](#): > > And that your claims about no evidence are not directed at claims that “some of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? My claims about no evidence are directed at the claims that “the best explanation for the test score gap is inferior genes for intelligence among black people”. Putting it another way: I also refute that there is any data/evidence that points to this explanation over all other explanations. Further, there is data/evidence that points _against_ this explanation, like the Scarr (et al) study. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/743 "2014-07-24T14:41:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a good example of what I consider ignorance and dishonesty coming mostly from your side. You go awfully easy on “ignorance and dishonesty” from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/744 "2014-07-24T14:44:28Z")
OK. I think you are being dishonest here. And the reason you insist on using the term “best explanation” is because it allows you to pretend that the “racial” side of the argument is that there is only one explanation which accounts for all the disparity, without you actually making that claim outright (since you know it’s untrue that this is their position and your claim would be easily rebutted). Does not speak well of you or your position. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You go awfully easy on “ignorance and dishonesty” from the other side. As I said, nothing Chief Pedant has said comes remotely close to this. > [@](#): > > Where have I said this is an open and shut case? I’ve said multiple times that I think that the specific causes of the test score gap remain pretty open questions. What you’ve said is open and shut is that you’ve said there is zero evidence of a genetic factor. So you should account for experts, whose opinions are ostensibly based on or at least informed by, evidence, giving weight to that position. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/745 "2014-07-24T14:54:08Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK. I think you are being dishonest here. Show a chain of posts in which I’m being dishonest. > [@](#): > > And the reason you insist on using the term “best explanation” is because it allows you to pretend that the “racial” side of the argument is that there is only one explanation which accounts for all the disparity, without you actually making that claim outright (since you know it’s untrue that this is their position and your claim would be easily rebutted). No, I’m using “best explanation” as it would be commonly understood. For example, what’s the “best explanation” that X number of people are sweating? The best explanation is probably that it’s hot. But there are probably other explanations – exercise, spicy foods, etc. I think I’ve been pretty clear throughout – I don’t believe there is a single shred of evidence that points to “black people have inferior genes for intelligence” as the _best explanation_ (i.e. the most likely explanation that better explains things then all the other possible explanations) for the test score gap. Further, I believe that there is data and evidence, like the Scarr et al study, that directly counters this explanation and would put other explanations as _more likely_ (i.e. “better”) than this one. > [@](#): > > Does not speak well of you or your position. Since you’re incorrect about how/why I’ve been using “best explanation”, you’re incorrect about this. > [@](#): > > What you’ve said is open and shut is that you’ve said there is zero evidence of a genetic factor. So you should account for experts, whose opinions are ostensibly based on or at least informed by, evidence, giving weight to that position. Yes, it’s “open and shut” that there is zero evidence that points to genes as the best explanation. And there is evidence that points _against_ genes as the best explanation (or even as any part of the explanation at all). As to the experts, I’d have to hear their justification for why they believe genes might be involved, even to some small degree. Maybe that have data that **CP** doesn’t, like an updated study that attempts to correlate degree of African admixture among self-identified black people with test scores. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/746 "2014-07-24T14:55:38Z")
Apparently the best explanation is that a single gene controls both skin color and intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/747 "2014-07-24T15:04:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I’m using “best explanation” as it would be commonly understood. For example, what’s the “best explanation” that X number of people are sweating? The best explanation is probably that it’s hot. But there are probably other explanations – exercise, spicy foods, etc. > > I think I’ve been pretty clear throughout – I don’t believe there is a single shred of evidence that points to “black people have inferior genes for intelligence” as the _best explanation_ (i.e. the most likely explanation that better explains things then all the other possible explanations) for the test score gap. Further, I believe that there is data and evidence, like the Scarr et al study, that directly counters this explanation and would put other explanations as _more likely_ (i.e. “better”) than this one. You’re just continuing to play the same game. I stand by my previous comments and have nothing further to add at this time. > [@](#): > > As to the experts, I’d have to hear their justification for why they believe genes might be involved, even to some small degree. Maybe that have data that **CP** doesn’t, like an updated study that attempts to correlate degree of African admixture among self-identified black people with test scores. Maybe. Or maybe not. Either way, it does not align with your claims here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/748 "2014-07-24T15:19:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re just continuing to play the same game. I stand by my previous comments and have nothing further to add at this time. You’re playing games, considering that you’ve failed to back up your accusations against me. Your interpretation of my ‘misstatements’ (as well as your understanding of my entire argument) has been consistently wrong, and you’ve consistently declined to back them up when I’ve challenged you. It’s possible that I’ve made my arguments poorly. But so far, you’re all alone here in your criticisms. I’m not going to just take your word for it, especially considering that you’ve declined to address my challenges to your criticisms. > [@](#): > > Maybe. Or maybe not. Either way, it does not align with your claims here. Considering we’re talking about the survey answers of anonymous ‘experts’ who have had no opportunity to back up their opinions, it doesn’t seem to have much at all to do with my claims (or the claims of anyone else on this topic). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/749 "2014-07-24T15:41:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re just continuing to play the same game. I stand by my previous comments and have nothing further to add at this time. Well then. I guess you been schooled, **iiandyiii**. You’re the most dishonest part of this whole discussion, and his post is his cite. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/750 "2014-07-24T15:41:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re playing games, considering that you’ve failed to back up your accusations against me. Your interpretation of my ‘misstatements’ (as well as your understanding of my entire argument) has been consistently wrong, and you’ve consistently declined to back them up when I’ve challenged you. > > It’s possible that I’ve made my arguments poorly. But so far, you’re all alone here in your criticisms. I’m not going to just take your word for it, especially considering that you’ve declined to address my challenges to your criticisms. I’ve explained enough. The fact that you’re ignoring something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The only one who “declined to address” anything is you, who refused to answer a simple and direct question in post #741, in favor of just repeating your jive about “best explanation”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/751 "2014-07-24T15:43:19Z")
Some people find it easier to attack the person rather than the issue at hand. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/752 "2014-07-24T15:51:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’ve explained enough. The fact that you’re ignoring something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You’ve “explained enough”. No, you’ve just decided to quit. You’re the one who’s stopped engaging here, not me. > [@](#): > > The only one who “declined to address” anything is you, who refused to answer a simple and direct question in post #741, in favor of just repeating your jive about “best explanation”. What are you talking about? I answered that question in the next post. My answer did contain nuance. Did you want a simple “yes” or “no”? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/753 "2014-07-24T15:51:52Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The papers I’ve seen estimate the West Eurasian component in the Ethiopian gene pool to be about 40%. Were you seriously unaware of that? Let me guess, Pickering, right? The guy who completely ignores the alternate explanation that Ethiopia has a high percentage of “West Eurasian” genes _because_ Ethiopia is the _Urheimat_ for those genes (which is certainly supported by the linguistic evidence for the Horn being the AfroAsiatic language group _Urheimat_ too). That the Ethiopian population is the source, not the receiver of those genes. And hence it’s not Ethiopian “whiteness”, but Eurasian _négritude_, that is evidenced by the genes. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/754 "2014-07-24T15:56:32Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Incidentally, **MrDibble** the fact that Ethiopians have a lot of West Eurasian genetics and low IQ scores is evidence _against_ **Chief Pedant** ’s claim, not for it. I’m aware of that. Clines, not clusters, of course. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/755 "2014-07-24T15:58:51Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is a good example of what I consider ignorance and dishonesty coming mostly from your side. And the gong goes bong again. Interesting how you demand iiandyiiii explain the motivations of the scientists when you won’t even take a stab at the motivations of CP and crew. This after you called me dishonest because I think racism is really prevalent. Or maybe it’s because I don’t think racism is really prevalent. Figuring out your point is a bit on the tricky side since you make shit up as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/756 "2014-07-24T16:13:28Z")
Seems like there’s a genetic tendency for people to reject theories they don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/757 "2014-07-24T16:16:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Seems like there’s a genetic tendency for people to reject theories they don’t like. This is as scientific as the stuff **Chief Pedant** and **Chen019** and company like to trot out, although (so far) it’s thankfully much briefer. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/758 "2014-07-24T16:21:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, it’s “open and shut” that there is zero evidence that points to genes **as the best explanation.** (emphasis added) There’s your problem right there. You keep on with this straw man of “best explanation”. Since you feel the need to do so—repeatedly—it does seem that you would, in fact, _agree_ that there is evidence that genes are the, or a, determinant. Correct? Granted, the evidence may not point to genes being the “best explanation”, but that doesn’t mean that they might provide an explanation. And, possibly, in time, met provide the best explanation. Mind you, I’m not of the opinion that there is even a genetic difference when it comes to intelligence between races. Bu the possibility does exist. And there is evidence for it. Even if it does not rise to the level of “best explanation”. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/759 "2014-07-24T16:29:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Seems like there’s a genetic tendency for people to reject theories they don’t like. Probably. Most personality traits, including openness, have a large heritable component. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/760 "2014-07-24T16:32:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m aware of that. Clines, not clusters, of course. Yes, clines, not clusters. I’m not sure what your point is- things like temperature, precipitation, etc. vary along clines too, but we can still talk about ‘rain forest environemnts’, ‘monsoon forest environments’, ‘boreal forest’ etc. even though there often no sharp lines between them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=39)