# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/761 "2014-07-24T16:35:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Probably. Most personality traits, including openness, have a large heritable component. There are some people here who are open enough to hear out the possibility that there may be a relationship between genetics and intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/762 "2014-07-24T16:36:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There’s your problem right there. How is it a problem? > [@](#): > > You keep on with this straw man of “best explanation”. How is it a straw man? Has **CP** not said that genes are the best explanation? > [@](#): > > Since you feel the need to do so—repeatedly—it does seem that you would, in fact, _agree_ that there is evidence that genes are the, or a, determinant. Correct? There is evidence that something besides socio-economic status is involved in the test score gap. Genes are included in this category of “non SES” explanations. So yes, there is evidence that there are non-SES factors involved, and one possibility is genetics. And I’ve never denied this. > [@](#): > > Granted, the evidence may not point to genes being the “best explanation”, but that doesn’t mean that they might provide an explanation. And, possibly, in time, met provide the best explanation. Mind you, I’m not of the opinion that there is even a genetic difference when it comes to intelligence between races. Bu the possibility does exist. And there is evidence for it. Even if it does not rise to the level of “best explanation”. This is a straw man if you think that I disagree with any of this. I’ve never denied that there’s a possibility that genes are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/763 "2014-07-24T16:37:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is as scientific as the stuff **Chief Pedant** and **Chen019** and company like to trot out, although (so far) it’s thankfully much briefer. I love how you treat this as a joke, but it’s almost certainly _true_ that willingness to consider new ideas is a strongly genetically influenced trait. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/764 "2014-07-24T16:38:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There are some people here who are open enough to hear out the possibility that there may be a relationship between genetics and intelligence. Yep, there’s a possibility. When you have some evidence that points to this explanation over all others, please come forward. You do know that there’s evidence, like the Scarr et al study, that specifically counters genetics as a likely culprit, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/765 "2014-07-24T16:39:31Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I love how you treat this as a joke, but it’s almost certainly _true_ that willingness to consider new ideas is a strongly genetically influenced trait. I almost hesitate to ask, but what evidence is there that it is “almost certainly true” that this is the case? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/766 "2014-07-24T16:43:02Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I love how you treat this as a joke, but it’s almost certainly _true_ that willingness to consider new ideas is a strongly genetically influenced trait. This isn’t a new idea, though. And I’ve never found this type of research very convincing. I think we’re still mostly fumbling around in the dark when it comes to genes and human behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/767 "2014-07-24T16:44:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I almost hesitate to ask, but what evidence is there that it is “almost certainly true” that this is the case? Willingness to consider new ideas is generally associated with the personality trait ‘openness to experience’, which is the most heritable of the Big Five personality traits. [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.1996.tb00522.x/full](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.1996.tb00522.x/full) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/768 "2014-07-24T16:48:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is a straw man if you think that I disagree with any of this. I’ve never denied that there’s a possibility that genes are involved. Well, if you agree that it is a possibility and that evidence exists for it, then we are in agreement. I don’t know what we argued about for countless hours then. Onward. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/769 "2014-07-24T16:51:33Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Interesting how you demand iiandyiiii explain the motivations of the scientists when you won’t even take a stab at the motivations of CP and crew. The reason I expect iiandyiiii to explain the motivations of scientists is because he is making the claim that their opinions are based on zero evidence. This is somewhat atypical for scientists and calls for an explanation. CP’s motivations are not relevant to anything. > [@](#): > > This after you called me dishonest because I think racism is really prevalent. Or maybe it’s because I don’t think racism is really prevalent. I don’t recall any of this. Can you link to this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/770 "2014-07-24T16:53:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you agree that it is a possibility and that evidence exists for it, then we are in agreement. I don’t know what we argued about for countless hours then. We argued about whether these claims were “racist”. I still hold that they are. We also argued about whether the evidence **CP** put forward really did suggest, even in a small way, that black people have inferior genes for intelligence. I still hold that it did not. And I’ve described what kind of evidence would actually suggest this. Further, there is evidence that explicitly refutes this claim. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/771 "2014-07-24T16:55:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The reason I expect iiandyiiii to explain the motivations of scientists is because he is making the claim that their opinions are based on zero evidence. I’m making no claims about these scientists’ opinions. My arguments have been about the assertions of posters like **CP**. The opinions of the scientists cannot reasonably be sussed out, in anything beyond the vaguest way, from that survey. > [@](#): > > CP’s motivations are not relevant to anything. Then why are my motivations in refuting **CP** ’s claims – my motivations which you have attacked – relevant? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/772 "2014-07-24T16:55:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t recall any of this. Can you link to this? Upthread, when you said how you think people who call out racism are dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/773 "2014-07-24T16:57:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then why are my motivations in refuting **CP** ’s claims – my motivations which you have attacked – relevant? Because that’s different. Because you are dishonest. I’m surprised I have to explain these things to you! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/774 "2014-07-24T16:58:02Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/775 "2014-07-24T16:58:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What are you talking about? I answered that question in the next post. My answer did contain nuance. Did you want a simple “yes” or “no”? No, you ignored the actual question. Here it is again: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Is it really your impression that the position you are disputing is that “most of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? And that your claims about no evidence are not directed at claims that “some of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”? Note that this is not a question about what you personally believe. It’s about what you think others are saying, that you are disputing. [The reason I asked it is because at the time I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were harping on the meaningless-in-context “best explanation” lingo because you may have misunderstood what others were saying.] ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/776 "2014-07-24T17:05:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, you ignored the actual question. Here it is again:Note that this is not a question about what you personally believe. It’s about what you think others are saying, that you are disputing. > > [The reason I asked it is because at the time I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were harping on the meaningless-in-context “best explanation” lingo because you may have misunderstood what others were saying.] Yes, I think that at least part of what **CP** is saying is “most of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”. I thought that was pretty clear from him – as far as I can tell, he believes that the remaining disparity in test scores is entirely or almost entirely due to inferior genes for intelligence, on average, in black people. He’s also said that he doesn’t expect the gap to shrink in the future – he thinks it is entrenched, due to the genes. Do you disagree that this is what he has said? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/777 "2014-07-24T17:05:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Upthread, when you said how you think people who call out racism are dishonest. I assume you mean where I said “_As a general rule, though, I think people who obsess over who is or is not a racist are not honest people, and their motives are not straightforward_”. I was not accusing you specifically of being dishonest. You had claimed that I “_complain about being called a racist_” and I was responding to that claim. My response was that I had not complained about anything and in general have no problem being called racist, as long as it’s clear what is meant. But that generally, the reason for calling people racist is an attempt to mislead, and I would object in such circumstances. It was not a comment about you specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/778 "2014-07-24T17:22:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m making no claims about these scientists’ opinions. You are, in reconciling these opinions with your claim that there is “no evidence” of any genetic difference. > [@](#): > > Then why are my motivations in refuting **CP** ’s claims – my motivations which you have attacked – relevant? They’re not _relevant_ in the sense that these scientist’s opinions are relevant, as in “having a bearing on the likelihood one position or another being correct”. However, they are of some _interest_, considering the amount and intensity with which you have posted on these issues. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, I think that at least part of what **CP** is saying is “most of the difference in test scores is due to genetic factors”. > > I thought that was pretty clear from him – as far as I can tell, he believes that the remaining disparity in test scores is entirely or almost entirely due to inferior genes for intelligence, on average, in black people. He’s also said that he doesn’t expect the gap to shrink in the future – he thinks it is entrenched, due to the genes. > > Do you disagree that this is what he has said? That’s not my impression but I couldn’t say for sure. I’ve not focused on this (i.e. the position of CP specifically WRT this distinction) because I don’t think it’s significant for the broader issue. Let’s back away from CP specifically for a minute. Suppose someone else, not CP - call him DQ - said the following: “right now there is a disparity on test scores. I think some of this is undoubtedly due to environmental factors. However IMO the disparity is too great/persistent/whatever to be explained entirely by environmental factors, and therefore it is very likely that some of this disparity is due to genetic factors. Meaning if you eliminated all environmental differences there would still be some difference left. Maybe most of the current difference, maybe less than most, but some difference would remain, based on genetic differences that exist.” Would you argue against that guy in the same terms, and with the same claim that there is “no evidence” of any genetic difference? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/779 "2014-07-24T17:33:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I was not accusing you specifically of being dishonest. Why not? I fit your qualifications. I’m interested in defining racism and calling it out when I see it in myself and others. As for your “complaints” as I called them, you said: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > By the standards of this OP, I’m definitely a racist… > > What I do object to is being defined as racist based on these qualifications and then having the term used with the connotation of being some sort of KKK member or the like. So, you are happy to be called a racist so long as no one attempts to call you the bad sort of racist. How is this not a complaint about being called the bad sort of racist is beyond me. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They’re not _relevant_ in the sense that these scientist’s opinions are relevant, as in “having a bearing on the likelihood one position or another being correct”. However, they are of some _interest_, considering the amount and intensity with which you have posted on these issues. So true, considering how focused iiandyiiii is compared to the wide-ranging interests of CP who almost never talks about how stupid black people are. Why, he probably has upwards of two posts on this board about other topics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/780 "2014-07-24T17:36:07Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You are, in reconciling these opinions with your claim that there is “no evidence” of any genetic difference. I don’t understand this at all. > [@](#): > > They’re not _relevant_ in the sense that these scientist’s opinions are relevant, as in “having a bearing on the likelihood one position or another being correct”. However, they are of some _interest_, considering the amount and intensity with which you have posted on these issues. How convenient that my motivations are “of some interest”, but the motivations of someone who asserts that black people, on average, have inferior genes for intelligence are not. > [@](#): > > That’s not my impression but I couldn’t say for sure. I’ve not focused on this (i.e. the position of CP specifically WRT this distinction) because I don’t think it’s significant for the broader issue. Let’s back away from CP specifically for a minute. > > Suppose someone else, not CP - call him DQ - said the following: “right now there is a disparity on test scores. I think some of this is undoubtedly due to environmental factors. However IMO the disparity is too great/persistent/whatever to be explained entirely by environmental factors, and therefore it is very likely that some of this disparity is due to genetic factors. Meaning if you eliminated all environmental differences there would still be some difference left. Maybe most of the current difference, maybe less than most, but some difference would remain, based on genetic differences that exist.” > > Would you argue against that guy in the same terms, and with the same claim that there is “no evidence” of any genetic difference? I would probably argue against this guy, but in a different way (and with a different tone). I would say that there’s no genetic evidence of these differences, and no evidence of some other kind that points exclusively to genes as a cause. I would also show him the evidence, like the Scarr study, that specifically refutes the idea the genes are involved. I would also point out that the claim that black people, on average, have inferior genes for intelligence, is a racist claim, and I would point out the history of such claims. I would point out that, historically speaking, the gap is really not all that large or persistent at all – and that, at various times in history, any number of different groups were on the bottom by various measures. I would point out that it’s silly to put some sort of special emphasis on “now”, as if in modern times we have eliminated these social and cultural constructs that tend to put various ethnicities/races/groups in a heirarchy with predictable consequences. In short, I would tell him that I think it’s not reasonable to believe, at this point, and based on the evidence available, that this gap is caused by anything other than what caused the myriad of other gaps (academic, economic, criminal, social, etc.) we’ve seen in history – discrimination, oppression, persecution, and the like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=40)