# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/901 "2014-07-29T15:46:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IOW, you have nothing substantive with which to respond to that point. > > Somehow this fails to surprise me … Yup, that’s right. Congratulations. You win all the internets. Have a cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/902 "2014-07-29T15:49:35Z")
I’m not surprised that you would take umbrage at that. Because for your part, I don’t think you’ve said anything substantive in this entire thread. Or in any other thread I can recall either, FTM. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/903 "2014-07-29T15:49:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IOW, you have nothing substantive with which to respond to that point. > > Somehow this fails to surprise me … How so? your point depends on virtually nothing as you acknowledged already, you are only back-pedalling (after sounding more reasonable just recently) to go for the worst way to see that survey, so it is clear what side you support; remember: I’m here to reply to your asinine say so that there a controversy going, the evidence from the academics is also clear: it is a controversy only in the minds of the pseudo scientists and the racists. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/904 "2014-07-29T15:52:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not surprised that you would take umbrage at that. > > Because for your part, I don’t think you’ve said anything substantive in this entire thread. Or in any other thread I can recall either, FTM. Umbrage, now? Nope. Not even a little. Amusement? Oh my, yes. Lots of it. And yes, I find substance to be overrated. Particularly in the Pit. You found me out! Have another cookie! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/905 "2014-07-29T16:10:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And just think, this ineradicable pattern has persisted for nearly _fifty years_! It’s been over _four decades_ since US society as a whole reached a general consensus that several hundred years of legal discrimination and oppression and racist bigotry directed against blacks was probably unfair and wrong. Good heavens, that stretches back to the lifetimes of the _parents_ of many of today’s blacks! Obviously no complex societal phenomenon could survive that long unless it were based in innate and intractable genetic differences. Well said. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > For one thing, they haven’t had 50 years of “a fair shake at the table”. Maybe they’ve had 30, but I’m not even sure about that. Neither am I. Unequal sentencing from drug offenses started getting really bad about 30 years ago and it’s only now that politicians are making some steps toward addressing them. Meanwhile the Voting Rights Act has been gutted and the social safety net is being chipped away. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s almost sweet, if it wasn’t so sad, that **CP** thinks wide acceptance of his beliefs about the intelligence of black people would actually benefit black people. > > The thing is, we don’t have to theorize or hypothesize about this – for most of US history, **CP** ’s beliefs about the intelligence of black people were widely accepted by most of society and society’s leaders. And for most of US history, these beliefs were used to justify systemic and state-supported violence, oppression, exploitation, and brutality. > > Why the hell would we believe that it would be just the opposite today, were those beliefs resurrected? This is a great point. Any thoughts on this, **Chief Pedant**? Perhaps you’d like to call **iiandyiii** a cockroach? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/906 "2014-07-29T16:55:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > How so? your point depends on virtually nothing as you acknowledged already, you are only back-pedalling (after sounding more reasonable just recently) to go for the worst way to see that survey, so it is clear what side you support; remember: I’m here to reply to your asinine say so that there a controversy going, the evidence from the academics is also clear: it is a controversy only in the minds of the pseudo scientists and the racists. Hard to figure out what you’re saying, if anything. I said earlier that the survey was weakened by the small sample size, and is only significant in showing that the notion was not as far out as others (including you) claim it is. That said, WRT the specific issue of whether the expertise of these individuals was the appropriate one in making the assessment, I’ve noted that since in this case the genetic factor was being backed into by elimination of other factors, expertise in those other factors was more important than expertise in genetics, details of which are not the primary area of dispute. In that context, just carrying on further about pseudo-scientists and racists doesn’t add much. I mean, it’s not as if that hasn’t been mentioned a zillion times already. Yes, you think anyone who entertains such a notion is an idiot and a racist. Everyone gets that already. No one cares. Now, do you have any actual sort of real response to this specific point? It doesn’t look like it. That is all. > [@andros](#): > > And yes, I find substance to be overrated. Particularly in the Pit. You found me out! Not really. It’s actually pretty obvious just from reading your posts. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/907 "2014-07-29T16:59:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Not really. It’s actually pretty obvious just from reading your posts. Yes, dear. You’re very smart. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/908 "2014-07-29T17:01:25Z")
Being smart is even more over-rated than substance. But it does come in useful sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![common\_good](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@common\_good](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/common_good)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/909 "2014-07-29T21:51:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sometimes. But racism is not the same thing as xenophobia. They’re different words for different ideas. > > It’s what you were doing. > > I’ve had the misfortune to read some of your posts. Yea, different by degrees, not type. I don’t blame evolution for my inability to see in the infra-red. And I’m not blaming evolution for racism. But racism is a sort of blindness born of our innate tendency to judge others on insufficient evidence. Kinda like you did with me and my comments. You don’t have to read this. But since you have, I’m sure you won’t mind offering your superior insights into bigotry. I await enlightenment. Just like you. Ban me if you like. Authority never intimidates me. It ain’t gonna start with you. I got better things to do than look for friends among those whose superior intellect offers them cover while they throw stones. Anyway, ya’ got a weeny-arm, kid. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/910 "2014-07-29T22:20:45Z")
That was a remarkable post: every sentence was dumber than the one before it. ---
**Author:** ![common\_good](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@common\_good](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/common_good)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/911 "2014-07-29T22:27:05Z")
Yea, I must have hit something or you wouldn’t be overstating that. You can’t catch the ball, either. I am the one who gets banned. Let’s see if I’m right about that one. And don’t just edit this out and make it look like I walked away. That is, if you got the guts. I’m gonna’ guess you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/912 "2014-07-29T22:29:04Z")
Sweet Jesus, get the fuck over yourself. You’re dumb and you’re acting like a teenager, which does get on my nerves a little bit, but you don’t get banned for that. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/913 "2014-07-29T22:51:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Hard to figure out what you’re saying, if anything. > > I said earlier that the survey was weakened by the small sample size, and is only significant in showing that the notion was not as far out as others (including you) claim it is. That said, WRT the specific issue of whether the expertise of these individuals was the appropriate one in making the assessment, I’ve noted that since in this case the genetic factor was being backed into by elimination of other factors, expertise in those other factors was more important than expertise in genetics, details of which are not the primary area of dispute. Then you should stop claiming that you do not understand where Chief Pedant is coming from. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > In that context, just carrying on further about pseudo-scientists and racists doesn’t add much. I mean, it’s not as if that hasn’t been mentioned a zillion times already. Yes, you think anyone who entertains such a notion is an idiot and a racist. Everyone gets that already. No one cares. People like **faithfool** does, and he already encountered the “quality” of thought that **Hector\_St\_Clare** brings to the plate, that Hector supports you is in reality a point against you. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Now, do you have any actual sort of real response to this specific point? It doesn’t look like it. That is all. Not clear what point you have, the point I made stands, the survey you used is weak by your own words and me and others pointed out that it is misleading because the experts they consulted are asked to opine on an item that others should had been asked about, and the examples that show how common this move is made by the ones that want to misrepresent science shows what we are dealing with here. ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/914 "2014-07-30T02:02:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Being smart is even more over-rated than substance. > > But it does come in useful sometimes. Over-rated?! You have to be kidding. I would **kill** to be half as smart as most of the people pointing out how crazy-ass wrong you are in this thread. And how the hell is substance over-rated? That just…that just makes my eyeballs bleed. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/915 "2014-07-30T03:15:06Z")
> [@orangeapples](#): > > And how the hell is substance over-rated? That just…that just makes my eyeballs bleed. Sorry, that one was me. Ol’ **Phippsy** accused me of never posting anything of substance. I agreed, because he’s full of the smarts. And because he and I have very different ideas of what constitutes substance. And because IJDGAF whether he is impressed with my snarking and drive-by dickishness or not. (Fun fact: Of the previous five sentences, only one is sarcastic!) ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/916 "2014-07-30T03:22:56Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I just wanted to highlight this graf. Two elements of it stand out for me. > > Firstly, it absolutely astounds me that you believe that American Blacks of any SES “cannot perform academically” on the same level as White and Asian Americans. Your choice to take the actual facts, the honest-to-goodness evidence, and twist it from “have not” to “cannot” shows me clearly where your biases lie. > > Secondly, that you consider the very concepts of generational patterning, systemic racism, and social inertia to be “pure bullshit” indicates to me not only ignorance, but a very intentional and willful ignorance. > I don’t think you’re dishonest, and I don’t think you’re a bad person. OTOH, I don’t even know that you’re being sincere. Maybe everything you’re writing–and based on the number of words you’ve put up you’re clearly invested in this subject–is all just elaborate _advocatus diaboli_. > > Alls I do know is that based on what you write, you’re pretty fucking racist. I consider absolute bullshit to claim that SES and ancestral oppression is a more reasonable explanation than genes for the substantial gap between blacks and whites/asians that persists even when the black cohort consists of highly educated and wealthy families and the white/asian cohort consists of poverty-stricken and uneducated families. What specifically do you want to advance as a reason for that disparity? Are the educated and wealthy black parents too stupid to press the value of education on their children? Is racial oppression in the schools–which the parents apparently overcame–so horrible the black kids can’t learn? Are the black students so wounded by the trials of their grandparents that they are unable to learn how to reason and assimilate facts? As for the reasonableness of a genetic explanation, which part of it is likely to be wrong? Is there a scientist somewhere with some data that genes don’t cluster for self-identified races? A scientist somewhere who thinks genes for some traits are off limits from evolution? A scientist somewhere who has erased the average difference beyond what can be erased by accounting for opportunity? The only reason average genes are an unpopular explanation is that it is unpalatable to think of groups as being inherently differently enabled for skillsets. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/917 "2014-07-30T03:33:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No-one’s ever contested an Out-of-Africa/Africa split in the past, you cretin. > > But if you contend that M&N are evidence in your favour, you’re deluded. The existence of M1 and N1a populations show that your “seperated genesets” idiocy is just so much bullshit. Nobody’s been that isolated, since the Australians split.Really? Then why do the high M&N-carrying Ethiopians score lower than the L3 relicts south of them, in your ‘scientific’ racist literature?Only if that’s how you choose to split people up.Except when they don’t, of course. > > Unless your idea of “cluster by race” is “Everyone outside of SSAfrica” vs “Everyone In SSAfrica. Oh, except the Horn and East Africa, that doesn’t count. Clines? What clines?” > Not even the most virulent racist I’ve encounters favours a two-race model. > What are the “average appearance differences” between an Andaman Islander and an Mbuti tribesman? How does that line up with their genetic differences? What are the “average appearance” _similarities_ between an Andamanese and a Han Chinese? How does that line up with their genetic clustering? > > How succesful do you think an Andamanese would be at convincing a Klan rally that it’s cool, he’s really _Asian_? Before you get too upset and confused about the concept of averages and descendant lines, I’d suggest some more reading. One could easily take any anchor point at a migration gate and create two races. Or take multiple anchor points and make a hundred. Biologically speaking, the question is whether or not, given a grouping schema, the groups have genes which cluster by those groupings. What happens when they do–and for self identified races, they do–is that an average frequency for some genes varies among the two groups. For example, the average frequency for any number of genes coding for disease states varies between the self-identified groupings of blacks and whites. This doesn’t mean every subgrouping varies the same way, and I think that’s where you are getting confused. For example, if you were to look at the frequency of MCPH1 Haplogroup D variant, you’d find it remarkably more penetrated into white populations than black ones, even though you might find exceptions on both sides. The relative isolation of populations for tens of thousands of years does not mean there has never been admixture; it’s just a comment about why average geneset pools differ. You would find, for instance, a much higher average frequency for Neandertal gene in self-identified white populations than black, even though you might find exceptions on both sides. The reason is that the introgression of Neandertal genes into the human race is thought to have occurred in early M-N lines, with minimal penetration back into african populations. I hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/918 "2014-07-30T03:51:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is a great point. Any thoughts on this, **Chief Pedant**? Perhaps you’d like to call **iiandyiii** a cockroach? I did call him a cockroach. At least, I meant to. As to whether or not a refusal to admit that self-identified race groups differ in skillsets at a genetic level will help or hurt blacks, we’ll see where the court cases take us. As I’ve pointed out, public sentiment has historically been favorable toward race-based AA on the grounds that historic oppression leaves blacks unfairly disadvantaged for education, and that this unfair SES disparity leaves their academic performance marginal. Therefore, to make up for an unfair SES, it’s reasonable to have a race-based preference. In recent years, as the black middle class has improved, it’s the case that the best black students come from those more privileged families. However the best black students from those privileged backgrounds are still woefully behind their privileged peers, and not even competitive with underprivileged whites. This is a dilemma for schools, who want the best students they can get. What they have had to do is preserve a race-based preference for black students even when the black student is far more privileged than the whites and asians with whom his scores compare. If we recognize that different groups are differently enabled, we can accommodate this in the name of race-based diversity. If we refuse to admit it, public sentiment will continue to turn against race-based AA and back toward opportunity-based AA. The recent cases of Ricci DeStefano, U Texas Fisher, and Michigan Schuette are all examples. But race-based AA is much deeper than that, extending as a practical approach to diversity across nearly every public and private sector in the US. If we lose it because we decide only opportunity should be considered, we will strike a significant blow to the rise of the black middle class in the USA. Much of that middle class has been built on race-based preferences all along the educational line, under the assumption that it will be self-sustaining as children from that middle class have access to the same schooling successful whites and asians have had all along. That has not happened. It will not happen until such time as the gene pools have the same average frequency for genes creating equivalently functional outcomes. What the Nazis did with genetic differences is irrelevant to what we should do now, and the reason it is brought up here by others is either ignorance or ad hominem attacks. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/919 "2014-07-30T07:27:50Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > for self identified races, they do Really? What race is an Andanamese? An Aeta? A Vanuatuan? How do you think they’d “self-identify”? You draw the distinction between Africa/Not because that is your _choice_. You freely admit you _could_ group humans any way you choose, but that is how _you_ **choose** to draw the lines. And then you blithely ignore all exceptions and gradations and pretend you have a model for how the world actually is, that the picture in your head reflects historic and current reality. That is what makes you a racist. And when it’s pointed out to you that , say , the “general appearance” \*you brought up \* doesn’t actually match genetic groupings or continental groups, you don’t answer those objections, you just Gallop on. Because you’re a racist, and race is all you see. ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2014, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/920 "2014-07-30T08:20:33Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Sorry, that one was me. Ol’ **Phippsy** accused me of never posting anything of substance. I agreed, because he’s full of the smarts. And because he and I have very different ideas of what constitutes substance. And because IJDGAF whether he is impressed with my snarking and drive-by dickishness or not. > > (Fun fact: Of the previous five sentences, only one is sarcastic!) Ah, dang. I hate it when someone tail-ends a conversation I’m having with someone else and wants to comment on the last thing they heard. And here I did it on the internet where it’s all in black and white and easily reviewable, so I have no good excuse. Now I’m going to point at that thing behind you so you can check it out while I quietly slip away… :o [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=47)