# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1041 "2014-07-31T22:09:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I never said it was proof. You’re inferring a lot of wrong things about my positions, for some reason. But, so far, it’s the only study that says _anything_ directly about genes. Do you believe that there is no—ZERO—evidence supporting the position you do not agree with? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1042 "2014-07-31T22:11:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How dare you point out that I have a life that doesn’t allow me to spend as much time as you on these boards! You found time to post in other threads somehow. I may have actually jumped the gun in this instance, but you’ve pulled this move more than a few times. When this thread’s over you’ll say all the same things in the next one. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1043 "2014-07-31T22:17:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you believe that there is no—ZERO—evidence supporting the position you do not agree with? Zero evidence is a pretty low bar. If all you want is \*some \*evidence, then I have \*some \*evidence that socialism is the greatest economic policy in the history of mankind. Yet despite that evidence, you don’t seem to spend as much time arguing that position as you do this one. Maybe you should raise your standards? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1044 "2014-07-31T22:18:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You found time to post in other threads somehow. I may have actually jumped the gun in this instance, but you’ve pulled this move more than a few times. When this thread’s over you’ll say all the same things in the next one. Devastating. How shall I ever atone for my consistency? Naturally, the same can be said for you and just about everyone else in the thread, but, but…_something_. Isn’t that right? Look, douche. This is a pastime. Something I jump on to and off of as whim and other things in life dictate or allow. Most posters would realize that. A poster that has a relationship with the board beyond merely being a poster, _should_ realize that. But given you’re particular skill set—or lack thereof—I am not surprised that this rather self-evident truth would elude you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1045 "2014-07-31T22:21:20Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Zero evidence is a pretty low bar. If all you want is \*some \*evidence, then I have \*some \*evidence that socialism is the greatest economic policy in the history of mankind. Yet despite that evidence, you don’t seem to spend as much time arguing that position as you do this one. Maybe you should raise your standards? As much as I would disagree, I would not be of the opinion that there is not evidence that more socialist policies are the best. Even that pure Socialism would be the best. My acknowledging that existing of evidence in no way indicates any agreement with what the correct conclusion would be if all the evidence were taken into account. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1046 "2014-07-31T22:22:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Devastating. How shall I ever atone for my consistency? Try being consistently right. You’ve tried every type of being consistently wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1047 "2014-07-31T22:24:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you believe that there is no—ZERO—evidence supporting the position you do not agree with? Zero evidence that directly points to genes as the cause. There is evidence that suggests that certain particular “nurture” causes, like economics and wealth, are not adequate to explain the entire gap. But there is zero evidence that points to genes and away from all other causes. Essentially, there’s no more evidence that points to genes as the cause than there is that alien brain parasites that only prey on black people are the cause. Nuance, yes… but some questions require nuance, and sometimes simple answers aren’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1048 "2014-07-31T22:25:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Try being consistently right. You’ve tried every type of being consistently wrong. Yawn. Right back at ya. Care to plop out any other lame attempts at cutting bon mots? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1049 "2014-07-31T22:25:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > As much as I would disagree, I would not be of the opinion that there is not evidence that more socialist policies are the best. Even that pure Socialism would be the best. My acknowledging that existing of evidence in no way indicates any agreement with what the correct conclusion would be if all the evidence were taken into account. No matter how crazy, stupid, or ignorant a theory is, there’s \*some \*evidence that it’s right. You just have to define “some” low enough. So you understand why claiming that “hey, there’s \*some \*evidence that race IQ differences are genetic” isn’t a particularly compelling argument? So you’ll stop doing it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1050 "2014-07-31T22:35:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Zero evidence that directly points to genes as the cause. No one has made such a claim. Certainly not I. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There is evidence that suggests that certain particular “nurture” causes, like economics and wealth, are not adequate to explain the entire gap. Okay, good. Agreement. Whew! So, there is some evidence, teensy-weensy as it might be. Now, wouldn’t you agree, though, that as more and more attempts to correct for nurturing aspects fail to explain away the difference, that that tiny bit of evidence—or pieces of evidence—gets a tiny bit stronger? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But there is zero evidence that points to genes and away from all other causes. Again, not a claim anyone has made. But let me ask this. Do you acknowledge that there exists in the world of investigation two types of evidence: direct and indirect? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nuance, yes… but some questions require nuance, and sometimes simple answers aren’t enough. I agree. And we keep amassing evidence until we know with certitude. Until that time, ALL evidence should be taken into account, right? Shouldn’t science be open-minded, dispassionate? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1051 "2014-07-31T22:35:36Z")
If someone in a klan hood says something racist, it doesn’t magically become non-racist when emitted by a guy in a lab coat. Statements are racist or not, regardless of who says them, and even regardless of _why_ they are said. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1052 "2014-07-31T22:39:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > No matter how crazy, stupid, or ignorant a theory is, there’s \*some \*evidence that it’s right. You just have to define “some” low enough. So you understand why claiming that “hey, there’s \*some \*evidence that race IQ differences are genetic” isn’t a particularly compelling argument? So you’ll stop doing it? Why should I. As I’ve said numerous times, I don’t think that it is the case that one race is more intelligent than another. I actually think that Asians make the best case, but I’m aware of how much of that can be explained away via culture, so even that more compelling argument I question greatly. My only point in these threads is to push back against the notion that merely looking into the issue means that one is necessarily a racist. I find that astoundingly illogical and biased. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1053 "2014-07-31T22:44:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If someone in a klan hood says something racist, it doesn’t magically become non-racist when emitted by a guy in a lab coat. Statements are racist or not, regardless of who says them, and even regardless of _why_ they are said. Nonsense. And I do not believe for one millisecond that you give no weight to the messenger in other instances. If a Black research scientist with a Noble prize in genetics claimed that he is of the mind that Blacks are genetically disadvantaged when it comes to intelligence, and your white KKK guy with a hood made the same claim, claiming both statements are necessarily racist is nonsensical to the point of being other worldly. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1054 "2014-07-31T22:44:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, good. Agreement. Whew! So, there is some evidence, teensy-weensy as it might be. Now, wouldn’t you agree, though, that as more and more attempts to correct for nurturing aspects fail to explain away the difference, that that tiny bit of evidence—or pieces of evidence—gets a tiny bit stronger? Perhaps minutely, as does my “alien-brain-parasite” hypothesis. So, based on all the evidence, the genetic hypothesis is exactly as strong as the alien-brain-parasite hypothesis. > [@](#): > > Again, not a claim anyone has made. But let me ask this. Do you acknowledge that there exists in the world of investigation two types of evidence: direct and indirect? I suppose. But in this case, because of the nigh-infinite number of possible causes, no amount of indirect evidence is sufficient to pinpoint a cause. Only direct evidence, in this case, amounts to anything at all. There is plenty of direct evidence that points _away_ from certain causes – like that economics and wealth are not the entire cause, and that genes are not part of the cause at all (see the Scarr et al study). But there is no direct evidence that points _towards_ any particular cause (except for the part of the gap affected by economics and wealth that we’ve already noted). > [@](#): > > I agree. And we keep amassing evidence until we know with certitude. Until that time, ALL evidence should be taken into account, right? Shouldn’t science be open-minded, dispassionate? Obviously. And in an open-minded, dispassionate manner, it is incorrect to conclude or state that black people’s inferior genes for intelligence is responsible for the test-score gap. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1055 "2014-07-31T22:45:49Z")
Hey, Marley. Pick up the slack for me, wouldya? One of us has something else to see to now. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1056 "2014-07-31T22:46:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nonsense. And I do not believe for one millisecond that you give no weight to the messenger in other instances. If a Black research scientist with a Noble prize in genetics claimed that he is of the mind that Blacks are genetically disadvantaged when it comes to intelligence, and your white KKK guy with a hood made the same claim, claiming both statements are necessarily racist is nonsensical to the point of being other worldly. Nope. It’s absolutely reasonable, and in fact, the only objective way to look at it, to judge a statement _by the statement_, and not by the speaker. So that statement is racist, _even if a black scientist says it_. Just like it’s racist to say that Jews are inherently more greedy than white people, _even if a Jewish scientist says it_. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1057 "2014-07-31T22:51:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My only point in these threads is to push back against the notion that merely looking into the issue means that one is necessarily a racist. I’m not sure who’s saying this – I’ve said multiple times that doing good scientific research is _never_ racist. Looking into the cause of the test-score gap is absolutely not racist. It’s racist to say racist things – things like “black people have inferior genes for intelligence”, or the like (often gussied up in kinder, gentler-sounding language). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1058 "2014-07-31T22:52:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps minutely, as does my “alien-brain-parasite” hypothesis. So, based on all the evidence, the genetic hypothesis is exactly as strong as the alien-brain-parasite hypothesis. I’ll change this. The genetic hypothesis is actually _weaker_ than the “alien-brain-parasite” hypothesis, because there is direct evidence that points away from the genetic hypothesis, but no direct evidence (that I know of) that points away from alien brain parasites. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1059 "2014-07-31T22:55:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Perhaps minutely, as does my “alien-brain-parasite” hypothesis. So, based on all the evidence, the genetic hypothesis is exactly as strong as the alien-brain-parasite hypothesis. Oh, come on, exactly? Please. This is nonsense. It just shows that you’re not being logical, dispassionate. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I suppose. But in this case, because of the nigh-infinite number of possible causes, no amount of indirect evidence is sufficient to pinpoint a cause. Only direct evidence, in this case, amounts to anything at all. There is plenty of direct evidence that points _away_ from certain causes – like that economics and wealth are not the entire cause, and that genes are not part of the cause at all (see the Scarr et al study). But there is no direct evidence that points _towards_ any particular cause (except for the part of the gap affected by economics and wealth that we’ve already noted). You really are too invested in the outcome you want/expect. You keep torching straw men you erect right and left. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Obviously. And in an open-minded, dispassionate manner, it is incorrect to conclude or state that black people’s inferior genes for intelligence is responsible for the test-score gap. Sheezus, again with the straw!! Nobody’s concluding that. I’m saying there’s a bit of evidence for it, and stating that fact does not make one a racist. You already agreed there was evidence. Then tried to un-ring that bell. Again, you are two invested in the outcome. You are not being open-minded, dispassionate. Now, I really do have to run. Sorry, Marley, old chum. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1060 "2014-07-31T23:00:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, come on, exactly? Please. This is nonsense. It just shows that you’re not being logical, dispassionate. How? What evidence points more strongly towards genes than towards alien brain parasites? > [@](#): > > Sheezus, again with the straw!! Nobody’s concluding that. Are you kidding me? **CP** has been concluding this for _years_, along with fellows like banned posters NDD and Lonesome Polecat, and non-banned posters like Chen019. > [@](#): > > I’m saying there’s a bit of evidence for it, and stating that fact does not make one a racist. Stating “there might be a bit of evidence for genes” may not be racist. Stating “black people have inferior genes for intelligence” or the like is racist. > [@](#): > > You already agreed there was evidence. Any indirect evidence for genes is very, very weak and more than outweighed by the direct evidence opposing it. Perhaps not enough to rule out genes as a cause, but certainly enough counter-evidence that saying it is a cause is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Then tried to un-ring that bell. Again, you are two invested in the outcome. You are not being open-minded, dispassionate. No bell being un-rung here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=54)