# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1061 "2014-07-31T23:03:55Z")
It boggles the mind that someone can think the statement “blacks are less intelligent” is a _non-racist_ statement if it’s said by a scientist. If David Duke pays a black scientist to say “black people are inherently less intelligent than white people”, it’s just as racist as if Duke says it. And it’s just as racist as if the black scientist said it _without_ being paid or prompted by Duke. It doesn’t matter who says “black people are less intelligent than white people”… this is _always a racist statement_, no matter who says it, and no matter why they say it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1062 "2014-07-31T23:14:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It doesn’t matter who says “black people are less intelligent than white people”… this is _always a racist statement_, no matter who says it, and no matter why they say it. If something is true, is it still racist? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1063 "2014-07-31T23:26:23Z")
A discussion cannot be truly objective if there is a subtle, opinionated \*steering \*of the debate towards one preconceived notion/conclusion. A hidden philosophical force or tug, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1064 "2014-07-31T23:28:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If something is true, is it still racist? Saying something is racist implies it’s false, in common usage, but it’s really just a descriptor for statements and ideas that state that one race is superior or inferior to another, as the statement “black people are less intelligent than white people” does for the characteristic of intelligence. Were there legitimate direct scientific evidence for some racist statement, like, say, a geneset was found that was more prevalent among Jews that increased tendencies towards greed, than the definition and common usage of “racist” and “racism” would likely change to accommodate this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1065 "2014-07-31T23:30:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A discussion cannot be truly objective if there is a subtle, opinionated \*steering \*of the debate towards one preconceived notion/conclusion. Something that can be said only by having a gross ignorance of history. The preconceived notion was that some people were inferior than others just by their looks. > [@Velocity](#): > > A hidden philosophical force or tug, if you will. The Pioneer fund is not so hidden. > **[Pioneer Fund](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/pioneer-fund)** > > Started in 1937 by textile magnate Wickliffe Draper, the Pioneer Fund's original mandate was to pursue "race betterment" by promoting the genetic stock of those "deemed to be descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original... ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1066 "2014-07-31T23:41:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you kidding me? **CP** has been concluding this for _years_, along with fellows like banned posters NDD and Lonesome Polecat, and non-banned posters like Chen019. Interesting to notice that those posters also moonlight as climate change deniers or used immigration in an attempt at making a wedge between the proponents of carbon emission controls and those in favor of immigrants. [http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/greenwash-nativists-environmentalism-and-the-hypocrisy-of-hate) Hate of things that appear to be progressive (or are) is the common denominator. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1067 "2014-08-01T04:23:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The middle might be better defined as those who are aware that there’s no such thing as a black race, scientifically speaking, and that we have actual scientific evidence that there’s no genetic basis for the differences in test scores between blacks and whites. This is not secret information, it’s available to anyone who cares enough to look, which is why we suspect those who refuse to acknowledge it of being racists. Do you have any support for these contentions, or just a general impression that they are right. For races and biology, try [This Discover magazine article](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/05/02/human-races-may-have-biological-meaning-but-races-mean-nothing-about-humanity/#.U9sSbfldVy4) for starters, or perhaps [Jerry Coyne’s essay](http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/are-there-human-races/) In general, the scientific community is not opposed to the idea that “races” have biological clusterings for genes (due to the long history of human migration patterns). The scientific community is inclined to minimize those differences, and reassure, for obvious reasons, that no genes have directly been identified which are shown to be responsible for intelligence differences. Apparently, you wish to call a “racist” someone who thinks its a reasonable inference to make that such genes exist, since the pattern is so persistent and the alternate explanations so lame. That’s certainly you choice, although such a label has no bearing on the science of the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1068 "2014-08-01T04:32:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Here’s how the [Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence:_Knowns_and_Unknowns) report from the _Board of Scientific Affairs_ of the _American Psychological Association_ summed it up:Which is kind of how I see it, by remarkable coincidence. 🙂 > > [Note: this is from 1995, and it’s possible that things might have changed substantially since then - I don’t think so, but it’s possible.] These sorts of carefully wordsmithed position papers are unlikely to change. The “no empirical evidence” for genes is a nice and gentle way of saying that the exact genes and interactions are not identified. iiandyiiii likes this approach, because it lets you get by with saying “the gap pattern is basically unexplained.” The problem is that the long-assumed explanation has been opportunity and SES, because when we normalize those for other races, large gaps disappear. The residual gap for whites and asians given equal privilege and opportunity to develop a skillset is almost certainly genetic; it’s just not very controversial to raise it because it’s fairly small and fairly trivial. But the glaring dilemma with the white-asian/black pattern is that even when you skew learning opportunity for an academic skillset way toward favoring a black cohort, you don’t reverse the pattern. That makes genes a very likely explanation, and generally speaking various position statements are going to wordsmith around that with the hide-behind being that specific genes are not yet identified. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1069 "2014-08-01T04:35:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are no studies from the other side that directly point to genes – only studies that point away from certain, specific “nurture” causes like socio-economic status. Pointing away from SES as the entire cause is not evidence for genes as a cause, any more than it’s evidence for alien parasites as a cause. Alien parasites is about what the non-genetic side is down to. When you normalize SES for whites and asians, you get a fairly small residual pattern with, for example, asians typically outscoring whites in math skillsets. But when you normalize SES for whites and blacks, the black score gaps for any quantified skillsets are woefully short. Part of the non-SES, alternate-to-genes-explanation, dilemma is that it needs to be specific for blacks and only blacks. Alien parasites that affect only blacks, for example… ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1070 "2014-08-01T04:42:17Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I like the way you complain that everyone is calling you names, while calling them “egalitarians”, a term which applies to precisely no one in this thread. Maybe you should move out of that glass house before throwing stones? > > And as to your rubbish that no explanation other than genetics exists…there are plenty of explanations. Some of which I have personally given to you, but which you have somehow managed to forget. By “egalitarians” I mean those who think all races are approximately equal in potential for various skillsets such as those required for various sporting activities, intelligence tests, academic performance and the like–assuming there has been equal opportunity for nurturing for the skillset. No one in this thread is an egalitarian? I was thinking all of those calling me “racist” were opposed to the idea that any given race is better suited than another for an average better performance for a given skillset. Perhaps you can correct me? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1071 "2014-08-01T04:48:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Zero evidence that directly points to genes as the cause. There is evidence that suggests that certain particular “nurture” causes, like economics and wealth, are not adequate to explain the entire gap. But there is zero evidence that points to genes and away from all other causes. > > Essentially, there’s no more evidence that points to genes as the cause than there is that alien brain parasites that only prey on black people are the cause. > > Nuance, yes… but some questions require nuance, and sometimes simple answers aren’t enough. What “economics and wealth” bring are the opportunity to maximally nurture for skillsets perceived as ones of value. If you want to argue that wealthy and educated black parents just happen to not value education for their underperforming children, have at it. To my mind that is tantamount to saying they are either too stupid or lazy to maximize the opportunity to nurture their childrens’ education. Those children are woefully underperforming their equally privileged white and asian peers–so woefully that their scores are barely on par with poverty-stricken and undereducated whites and asians. This is “zero evidence” that gene differences are at play? This is good evidence that some totally mysterious non-genetic explanation is at play which we are all just too dumb too uncover? And that mysterious explanation applies only to blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1072 "2014-08-01T04:52:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve offered several – you just don’t like them. If I recall they are lousy black parenting, low teacher expectation and stereotype threat. You are right. I don’t like them, and they are really really lame–particularly when applied to a black cohort from wealthy and educated black parents. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1073 "2014-08-01T04:55:32Z")
Since we’re opening big cans of worms left and right, we might as well open another one and address the age-old issue of why the overwhelming majority of people who play positions in the NFL requiring great speed and agility (wide receiver, cornerback, safety, etc.) are African-American. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1074 "2014-08-01T05:02:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How? What evidence points more strongly towards genes than towards alien brain parasites? We have no evidence that alien brain parasites affect neurobiology. We know genes do. We have no evidence that abp’s cluster by race. We know genes do. Can you elaborate more on your theory it might be abp’s that explain why wealthy and educated black families have children who barely score on par with poverty-stricken and uneducated white families’ children? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1075 "2014-08-01T05:08:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Interesting to notice that those posters also moonlight as climate change deniers or used immigration in an attempt at making a wedge between the proponents of carbon emission controls and those in favor of immigrants. You’ve got exactly two debating tricks up your sleeve: 1. “The experts say…” 2. “Strawman!” This one above is a strawman, not to mention incorrect. But it does make me laugh out loud, along with your witless hope that ACC can somehow have relevance in a debate about genes. I know your heart is in the right place, but you really are as dumb as molasses when it comes to any actual independent thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1076 "2014-08-01T05:12:43Z")
And a bonus post for those who think self-identified races have nothing to do with how genes cluster… [_“We have analyzed genetic data for 326 microsatellite markers that were typed uniformly in a large multiethnic population-based sample of individuals as part of a study of the genetics of hypertension (Family Blood Pressure Program). Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity. On the other hand, we detected only modest genetic differentiation between different current geographic locales within each race/ethnicity group. Thus, ancient geographic ancestry, which is highly correlated with self-identified race/ethnicity—as opposed to current residence—is the major determinant of genetic structure in the U.S. population. Implications of this genetic structure for case-control association studies are discussed.”_](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/) Many many more articles available for those willing to learn instead of label. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1077 "2014-08-01T05:15:16Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Alien parasites is about what the non-genetic side is down to. When you normalize SES for whites and asians, you get a fairly small residual pattern with, for example, asians typically outscoring whites in math skillsets. But when you normalize SES for whites and blacks, the black score gaps for any quantified skillsets are woefully short. > > Part of the non-SES, alternate-to-genes-explanation, dilemma is that it needs to be specific for blacks and only blacks. Alien parasites that affect only blacks, for example… Wait, what? You think it’s unlikely that there might be pathogens that affect one race more strongly than another, and that compromise intelligence? I don’t think it’s implausible at all. Speaking of parasites, what do you think of that paper from a few years ago (ah, 2011 apparently) on national and state IQ scores by the notorious Randy Thornhill? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1078 "2014-08-01T05:26:47Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > We have no evidence that alien brain parasites affect neurobiology. We know genes do. > > We have no evidence that abp’s cluster by race. We know genes do. > > Can you elaborate more on your theory it might be abp’s that explain why wealthy and educated black families have children who barely score on par with poverty-stricken and uneducated white families’ children? Uh? Parasitic infection is a much better predictor of IQ than race. For example, if you compare US states by IQ and try to identify predictive factors, race is only marginally significant after you account for infectious disease prevalence. You are aware of the Thornhill study, right? Randy Thornhill is hardly a politically correct ideologue, to put it mildly. As for why rich black students score lower than poor white students, I think it’s fairly plausible there might be hereditary, epigenetic effects of disease stress a few generations ago. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1079 "2014-08-01T05:28:01Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Speaking of parasites, what do you think of that paper from a few years ago (ah, 2011 apparently) on national and state IQ scores by the notorious Randy Thornhill? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts. If we want to look at data suggesting genetic differences instead of nurturing influences, it seems to me the best data takes cohorts where the supposedly poorly-nurtured cohort actually has obvious nurturing advantages. This is why I find the academic skillset gap in the US academic world so persuasive. I am aware of various explanations for national IQ differences, including things like nutrition and disease. Every outcome is dependent on a combination of nurturing and nature, and I tend to focus on cohorts which have been normalized for nurture as it makes any residual difference much more likely to be genetic. Lots and lots of nurturing explanations for the observed outcome pattern among races have been advanced; most notorious perhaps is Jared Diamond’s work. By comparing scores of rich American blacks with rich (and poor) American whites/asians, I can avoid getting dragged into some argument around his contorted explanation for the worldwide difference in cargo. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1080 "2014-08-01T05:33:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Uh? > > Parasitic infection is a much better predictor of IQ than race. For example, if you compare US states by IQ and try to identify predictive factors, race is only marginally significant after you account for infectious disease prevalence. You are aware of the Thornhill study, right? Randy Thornhill is hardly a politically correct ideologue, to put it mildly. > > As for why rich black students score lower than poor white students, I think it’s fairly plausible there might be hereditary, epigenetic effects of disease stress a few generations ago. On the chance this is not a whoosh, I’ll just gently say you are getting all conflusterated. Wealthy and educated black families have children who, as a cohort, woefully underscore their SES peers. They underscore those SES peers so woefully that their scores are barely on par with poverty-stricken and undereducated whites. Parasites are not a secret scourge of wealthy and educated black families. It may be better to avoid various statistical wordsmithing tricks such as which factor X predicts which IQ outcome. That an individual has Down syndrome better predicts his IQ than if he is a particular race has no bearing on whether average performance outcome differences among races is due to average gene pool differences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=55)