# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1381 "2014-08-12T15:47:32Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > YOU are the one saying races have an egalitarian potential. Don’t know what this means, and in any case I haven’t said it. > [@](#): > > So what you choose to do is misstate me over and over again. “Cannot learn” is not the same as an academic gap. When I give you an example of "cannot learn that 2 + 2 = 4 because of ancestral oppression " I am giving you your position. That is categorically _not_ my position. I’ve never said black people are unable to learn. That would be an utterly ridiculous thing to say. You’re the one misstating over and over again here. > [@](#): > > It is you who hold that the score gap is due to some sort of undefinable, soft, black-specific ancestral/cultural reason. I think that’s bullshit. Obviously your opinion on this doesn’t matter to me. Your genetic explanation is bullshit. It doesn’t fit the fact. > [@](#): > > For physical skillsets, you’ll have to go watch an NBA game, and decide for yourself if: > > 1. The starting pool is about the same for all groups in terms of number of players interested in playing basketball in the first place In the US? Probably not. More black kids (proportionally) live in cities; there are more basketball courts in cities; so more black kids, proportionally speaking, grow up around basketball courts and can walk to basketball courts. > [@](#): > > 1. The nurturing environment favors one group over another for things like opportunity to play, coaching, facilities, family support and so on I imagine there are many “nurturing environment” differences with regards to basketball, just like for academics. Black parents may be more likely to encourage basketball than white parents, for example. > [@](#): > > 1. The selection process is fair to all In basketball, the selection process is probably mostly fair and based on ability. Novak Djokovic, had he grown up playing basketball, would probably be a terrific player in the NBA. Had Michael Jordan grown up playing tennis, he probably would have won multiple majors. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1382 "2014-08-12T15:50:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If the culture at large specifically treats black people differently to some degree, and portrays them differently in the media to some degree, then this might very well have an impact on how individuals develop self-esteem, self-worth, role models, etc. All this could have an impact on the difficulty of learning various specific skills, even simple ones like basic arithmetic. A child with a high self-worth, good self-esteem, postive role models, and the like, will probably learn 2 + 2 = 4 more easily and more quickly than a child without these things, or with these things in lesser quality and quantity. > > I do not have a specific learning theory. But I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that the lowest-scoring groups in the US are also the groups that were historically treated the most abominably. This idea, which is a very broad one, fits the facts. There was a cool study done on the impact of motivation on IQ test results. They administered IQ tests to a bunch of children, then took the group of children who overall scored one standard deviation below average and offered them a piece of chocolate for each right answer they got if they took the test again. Their average score jumped by 15 points, so that their average score rose from one standard deviation below average to average. Edit: this relates because black children are under-compensated for academic achievement due to prejudice, and therefore could be compared to unmotivated test takers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1383 "2014-08-12T17:12:53Z")
It’s astonishing to me that the centuries old history of enslavement and subjugation of black Americans and the _ongoing_ societal discrimination against them is being labeled as a “soft” cultural factor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1384 "2014-08-12T17:16:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > There was a cool study done on the impact of motivation on IQ test results. They administered IQ tests to a bunch of children, then took the group of children who overall scored one standard deviation below average and offered them a piece of chocolate for each right answer they got if they took the test again. Their average score jumped by 15 points, so that their average score rose from one standard deviation below average to average. Edit: this relates because black children are under-compensated for academic achievement due to prejudice, and therefore could be compared to unmotivated test takers. Interesting stuff. Do you have a link? I’d be curious if they also offered the higher-scoring students the same deal afterwards to see if their scores increased as well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1385 "2014-08-12T17:40:43Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Well your label of “racist” is an entirely arbitrary one applied, apparently, because I think biology has not been egalitarian in the distribution of eveolved and introgressed genes among descendant populations separated by historic migration patterns. > > So you can say people like me are still around. As it turns out, science is creating more of them everyday as the proof for gene patterns becomes increasingly obvious. Let’s be clear here. I’m calling you a racist because you’re a racist. The beliefs you just described have no scientific validity - as has been explained to you repeatedly in this thread and elsewhere. You cling to these false beliefs and claim there is truth in them because you are a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1386 "2014-08-12T18:09:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Interesting stuff. Do you have a link? I’d be curious if they also offered the higher-scoring students the same deal afterwards to see if their scores increased as well. [Here](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/how_children_succeed_book_excerpt_what_the_most_boring_test_in_the_world_tells_us_about_motivation_and_iq_.html) you go. Based on that summary the high-IQ group didn’t improve. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1387 "2014-08-12T18:15:22Z")
In any debate over any issue, people assign greater weight and value to things that support their side, while assigning lesser weight and value to things that support the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1388 "2014-08-12T18:18:45Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > [Here](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/how_children_succeed_book_excerpt_what_the_most_boring_test_in_the_world_tells_us_about_motivation_and_iq_.html) you go. Based on that summary the high-IQ group didn’t improve. Here’s the [primary source](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311892/). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1389 "2014-08-12T18:21:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Here’s the [primary source](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1311892/). And while searching for that I found [this](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/it-pays-to-invest-in-early-education-says-a-nobel-economist-who-boosts-kids-iq/), which says that the entire black/white IQ gap can be eliminated if the black test takers are offered one M&M per correct answer. Not sure what the primary source is for that though. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1390 "2014-08-12T18:33:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > And while searching for that I found [this](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/it-pays-to-invest-in-early-education-says-a-nobel-economist-who-boosts-kids-iq/), which says that the entire black/white IQ gap can be eliminated if the black test takers are offered one M&M per correct answer. Not sure what the primary source is for that though. Great. Now it will switch from “Black people are stupid!” to “Black people are greedy, like Jews!” ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1391 "2014-08-12T23:17:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > The gap exists precisely because we aren’t comparing like with like. The simple fact of the matter is that no black person in this country is going to have an equivalent experience to a white person, simply because we have an entrenched racism that affects everything a black person does regardless of their wealth, education, etc. A wealthy black person is going to get pulled over by the police for no reason (which has happened to high-income colleagues of mine). Is going to be treated differently by teachers (which I have seen happen). Is going to be treated differently by almost every single person they come into contact with. > > Now, our society is getting better (in fits and spurts), which is reflected by the decrease in the test gap. But until we have a fully equal society we will continue to have a test gap. I’m trying to figure out how the sort of “racism” you find so prevalent prevents a wealthy and privileged black student with educated parents from getting more answers correct when he’s had a privileged educational experience than a poverty stricken white student with uneducated parents when he’s had a crappy educational experience. What, exactly, happens, in your mind to make the student get those answers wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1392 "2014-08-12T23:33:13Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > There was a cool study done on the impact of motivation on IQ test results. They administered IQ tests to a bunch of children, then took the group of children who overall scored one standard deviation below average and offered them a piece of chocolate for each right answer they got if they took the test again. Their average score jumped by 15 points, so that their average score rose from one standard deviation below average to average. Edit: this relates because black children are under-compensated for academic achievement due to prejudice, and therefore could be compared to unmotivated test takers. Very cool, and I’d be happy to institute a program of chocolate bar distribution to all students whose academic performance is chocolate bar dependent. And frankly, I hope the dearth of chocolate bars is all that is preventing black students with privileged backgrounds from getting MCATS on par with their SES peers. I think this would be Federal money well spent; heck, I’d even step up to fund one Snickers per exam. Or maybe just email the wealthy black parents that can get rid of the pernicious effect of racism which is making their kids get test answers wrong by bribing them with a Mounds bar before each exam. But I’m not sure even the Feds could be persuaded not to confuse nonsense with substance. Maybe we could persuade the study author to put this sort of crap to a real life test and finally fix that stubborn score gap? How can you not be embarrassed to post this sort of baloney? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1393 "2014-08-12T23:37:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s astonishing to me that the centuries old history of enslavement and subjugation of black Americans and the _ongoing_ societal discrimination against them is being labeled as a “soft” cultural factor. It’s astonishing to me that any ancestral oppression would be advanced for a reason that a currently privileged child gets answers wrong on a test. I just don’t get the connection, having interviewed dozens of prospective applicants whose parents–much less ancestors–had horrible stories. But when those students had the chance to learn, they learned; when they had a chance to take an exam, they performed according to the opportunity they had had to learn. What happened to their parents and ancestors had no effect on putting down the correct answer to an exam question. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1394 "2014-08-12T23:59:11Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It’s astonishing to me that any ancestral oppression would be advanced for a reason that a currently privileged child gets answers wrong on a test. > > I just don’t get the connection, having interviewed dozens of prospective applicants whose parents–much less ancestors–had horrible stories. But when those students had the chance to learn, they learned; when they had a chance to take an exam, they performed according to the opportunity they had had to learn. What happened to their parents and ancestors had no effect on putting down the correct answer to an exam question. From the second link of **Evil Economist** that you called baloney: > [@](#): > > Disadvantaged parents are simply not providing much information. Yes, what happened to their parents has an effect, ignoring items like that on purpose is precisely why you are the one that looks dumb. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1395 "2014-08-13T00:28:11Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m trying to figure out how the sort of “racism” you find so prevalent prevents a wealthy and privileged black student with educated parents from getting more answers correct when he’s had a privileged educational experience than a poverty stricken white student with uneducated parents when he’s had a crappy educational experience. > > What, exactly, happens, in your mind to make the student get those answers wrong? This is not that hard to imagine. They have different interactions that might be discriminatory, oppressive, dehumanizing, etc. They see different media depictions of people that look like themselves, and different media stereotypes and role models. Their teachers have different expectations. There are probably many other different possibilities. In short, in America, the ‘black experience’, regardless of wealth, is often significantly different than other experiences. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1396 "2014-08-13T00:29:14Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Very cool, and I’d be happy to institute a program of chocolate bar distribution to all students whose academic performance is chocolate bar dependent. And frankly, I hope the dearth of chocolate bars is all that is preventing black students with privileged backgrounds from getting MCATS on par with their SES peers. I think this would be Federal money well spent; heck, I’d even step up to fund one Snickers per exam. Or maybe just email the wealthy black parents that can get rid of the pernicious effect of racism which is making their kids get test answers wrong by bribing them with a Mounds bar before each exam. > > But I’m not sure even the Feds could be persuaded not to confuse nonsense with substance. Maybe we could persuade the study author to put this sort of crap to a real life test and finally fix that stubborn score gap? > > How can you not be embarrassed to post this sort of baloney? It doesn’t strike you as possible that differences in motivation might be responsible, at least in part, for the test score gap? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1397 "2014-08-13T01:15:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve answered this before. I don’t know the answer to this question – we don’t know the genes responsible for sexual preference (if they exist). If forced at gunpoint to answer the question, I lean “yes, genes are at least partly involved”. This is due (firstly) to conversations with gay people, who can describe the origin of their sexual feelings. Further, twin studies have shown a correlation (though not a 100% correlation) in orientation. > > Neither of these pieces of evidence have a parallel for the question of intelligence – people can’t self-report any information about the source of their intelligence, nor are twin studies at all useful for race and intelligence because twins have the exact same genetic ancestry. The reason I ask the question has to do with the where the threshold is for accepting evidence and/or proof. I’d say my feelings are similar to yours and **Little Nemo’s.** But the point is that without identifying “the gay gene”, everyone was fine looking at evidence that pointed to the cause being genetic. No doubt that some people even went too far and pretty much concluded that the cause was genetic. Some in part, some in full. I’m sure some of the thinking was biased, but most was probably not. Regardless, people were able to have intelligent discussions fro many, many years without “the gay gene” ever being identified. As I said, I have zero problem with any of that. It strikes me that we have a parallel here with the reality of the situation, but not with how the discussion is allowed to progress. Mind you, I’m not saying that the case for intelligence is even near as compelling as that for homosexuality, but there is _evidence_. Identifying the gene would be _proof_. But some in the discussion (and I forget if you feel this way or not) think the only evidence that would be strong enough to warrant a discussion of race and intelligence is the identification of the gene. So, there seems to be an inconsistency that, to me, aligns with what the left (and this board) hope will be an outcome. If homosexuality was simply a choice, then that wouldn’t bode as well for gay rights. Here there is a strong desire that any difference in intelligence based on race will be able to be attributed to nurture, environment, etc. Regardless of the bias involved that might align with a politic faction, it seems to me that trying to shame scientists into not looking into something by calling them, or their hypotheses or actions, racist, fights directly with science and the spirit of dispassionate inquiry. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1398 "2014-08-13T01:39:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The reason I ask the question has to do with the where the threshold is for accepting evidence and/or proof. I’d say my feelings are similar to yours and **Little Nemo’s.** But the point is that without identifying “the gay gene”, everyone was fine looking at evidence that pointed to the cause being genetic. No doubt that some people even went too far and pretty much concluded that the cause was genetic. Some in part, some in full. I’m sure some of the thinking was biased, but most was probably not. Regardless, people were able to have intelligent discussions fro many, many years without “the gay gene” ever being identified. As I said, I have zero problem with any of that. > > It strikes me that we have a parallel here with the reality of the situation, but not with how the discussion is allowed to progress. Mind you, I’m not saying that the case for intelligence is even near as compelling as that for homosexuality, but there is _evidence_. Identifying the gene would be _proof_. But some in the discussion (and I forget if you feel this way or not) think the only evidence that would be strong enough to warrant a discussion of race and intelligence is the identification of the gene. > > So, there seems to be an inconsistency that, to me, aligns with what the left (and this board) hope will be an outcome. If homosexuality was simply a choice, then that wouldn’t bode as well for gay rights. Here there is a strong desire that any difference in intelligence based on race will be able to be attributed to nurture, environment, etc. > > Regardless of the bias involved that might align with a politic faction, it seems to me that trying to shame scientists into not looking into something by calling them, or their hypotheses or actions, racist, fights directly with science and the spirit of dispassionate inquiry. I can’t agree with this. As I said above, I don’t feel there is a clear consensus among knowledgeable scientists on the genetic origins of sexual preferences. But this is not the case with race and intelligence. The consensus on that is clear. Orcenio started a recent thread in which he links to numerous cites from scientists affirming that every credible scientist agrees there is no genetic link between race and intelligence. People claiming there is still legitimate dispute on this issue are like people claiming there is still legitimate dispute on whether smoking is bad for your health. The train has not only left the station - it’s traveled several hundred miles down the track. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1399 "2014-08-13T02:13:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I can’t agree with this. As I said above, I don’t feel there is a clear consensus among knowledgeable scientists on the genetic origins of sexual preferences. > > But this is not the case with race and intelligence. The consensus on that is clear. Orcenio started a recent thread in which he links to numerous cites from scientists affirming that every credible scientist agrees there is no genetic link between race and intelligence. > > People claiming there is still legitimate dispute on this issue are like people claiming there is still legitimate dispute on whether smoking is bad for your health. The train has not only left the station - it’s traveled several hundred miles down the track. I see what you’re saying and kind of agree. I thought I made it clear that I don’t think that the levels of evidence are similar. They’re not even close. My only point is that people were and are able to argue that homosexuality is, at least in part, genetic. Without any gene being found. That is still the case today, even with no gay gene being identified. Personally, I feel that there is a genetic component, not that it accounts for all homosexuality. I see there is evidence that race MAY have a genetic component. Counter evidence does not end the debate for me, and I am unpersuaded by “experts in the field” when it comes to socially sensitive issues that come prepackaged with ideology. Climate change is a similar issue for me. I believe it to be a fact, but it has turned into a religion. One that has no tolerance for the unbelievers. I think science is no place for that. Someone who questions any part of climate change doctrine, as preached by some on this board, is labeled a “denier”. Now, someone who looks at the evidence indicating that there MAY be a genetic component to intelligence needs to be labeled a “racist”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1400 "2014-08-13T03:06:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m trying to figure out how the sort of “racism” you find so prevalent prevents a wealthy and privileged black student with educated parents from getting more answers correct when he’s had a privileged educational experience than a poverty stricken white student with uneducated parents when he’s had a crappy educational experience.? Have you considered trying harder? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=71)