# Are you a racist? Warning signs **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519 "2014-07-07T08:12:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1441 "2014-08-13T16:18:54Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The average relative admixture in self-identified US blacks of (mostly) west african and european recent ancestry for genes is typically estimated at about 80% and 20%, respectively. Barack Obama and Navin Johnson are examples of outliers, but that’s the whole point of “average.” Like your expertise and your purported science, Navin Johnson is fictional. You’re touting a _typical estimate_ of an _average_ based on two huge areas without pining down any kind of time component. Compare that to the usual examples that are trotted out in support of this crap - one tribe that is exceptionally good at marathon running and another that is exceptionally good at sprinting. Those are two groups that are pretty well isolated. This is the exact opposite. The idea that you can make solid scientific conclusions based on this kind of vagary is insane. > [@](#): > > It does, and in fact you point out that “surface characteristics” are (on average) different between the two groups even though those at the end of the average spectrum on either side can pass for a different group. I don’t know what an average black or white appearance is. You could talk about some ‘typical’ characteristics, but it’s hard to do so without stereotyping (I’m assuming you would make an effort) and bringing in other groups who share those features (like dark skin) but don’t share the genetic characteristics you’re imagining. And again, those features vary a lot depending on where in Africa a person’s ancestors come from and what non-African people, if any, those ancestors mixed with. > [@](#): > > By self-defining as “black,” I would put myself in a gene pool (even in the US) where, on average, 80% of the pool contains genes which drive surface characteristics of my fellow self-definers toward an average appearance. Another problem is that those kinds of identities change over time. And I guess you’re trusting people to classify themselves genetically when they don’t know their genes in the first place. That’s about as credible as the guy who made up the IQ scores for several African countries. > [@](#): > > It’s a common misconception that we have to have a biologically stringent grouping to have a difference in average gene pools, but of course that’s simply not true. How fortunate for you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1442 "2014-08-13T16:53:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Men at those companies are also vastly over represented compared to women. Do you think this is evidence that women are less intelligent than men? Screw IQ tests. Will perform tech work for chocolate. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1443 "2014-08-13T16:56:10Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > Mods aren’t allowed to set traps in the Pit anymore, are they? Only [Pit traps.](http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FJL/5NV5/FV4LSDNT/FJL5NV5FV4LSDNT.SQUARE3.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1444 "2014-08-13T18:08:02Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > . . . given the poor performance of privileged black children compared with underprivileged white children, . . . Would you be so kind as to provide the citation for this favorite mantra of yours, again? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1445 "2014-08-13T18:35:22Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The performance gap is not due to […], this study notwithstanding. So the key is to ignore the studies that show you’re wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1446 "2014-08-13T18:44:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Men at those companies are also vastly over represented compared to women. Do you think this is evidence that women are less intelligent than men? Men outrepresent women at roughly 70% to 30%. If the general population is about half women, then 70% is a multiple of about 1.5 or so. This as opposed to a 120-fold differential representation for black v white tech sector for FaceBook. Neither distribution is a priori evidence of “intelligence,” but for a demonstrated skillset. In both cases, it is ultimately the gene differences at play, but given that women and men have biological constraints which both directly limit women (men don’t give birth) and indirectly limit them (men have a tendency to dominate while women are more inclined to cooperative behaviors), I am not inclined to jump to a conclusion that the preponderance of men is due to a neurbiological advantage for the necessary skillset. I do not think there is any data supporting a notion that men and women exposed to the same educational opportunity have consistently disparate results on academic and intellectual psychometric evaluations such as the screening tests used in the technical workplace. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1447 "2014-08-13T18:50:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is only an ongoing contention with the hay-people you’ve created. Certainly not with me. If nature does not exempt all but superficial genes, then it’s more likely than not that all groups descended from migration anchor points have had their neurobiological genes driven far enough to create neurobiological outcome differences for the same reason that the disparate evolution of superficial appearance genes creates an appearance difference disparate enough for groups to self-identify. Except for young-earth creationists, we evolve, and for at least some groups, we are admixed with archaic lineages as well. Think of evolution as “descent with modification,” and then consider whether “modifcation” is likely to produce an egalitarian result for any given characteristic across descendant populations isolated at different anchor points in our human history. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1448 "2014-08-13T18:51:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So the key is to ignore the studies that show you’re wrong? It never hurts! > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Neither distribution is a priori evidence of “intelligence,” but for a demonstrated skillset. Unlike basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1449 "2014-08-13T18:55:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is where I think you get it wrong. There is evidence for X. There is also evidence for Anti-X. Fine, but that doesn’t magically make the evidence for X disappear. You consistently either confuse or conflate evidence with proof. Now if the evidence for X can be PROVEN to be disregarded, because the other evidence can be proven to account for the theory of X, then you’d be right. But no such proof exists. You merely point to evidence that may account for X and wave your wand over it and give it the weight of proof that cleanly discounts the evidence that exists for X. For your own benefit, please list the specific evidence, along with cites, that percentage of African heritage is inversely correlated with IQ. Then list the specific evidence that it is not correlated. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1450 "2014-08-13T18:58:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Would you be so kind as to provide the citation for this favorite mantra of yours, again? [Here is a typical one, with freebie non-genetic explanations to cling to as a bonus. Deja vu.](http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html) I gotta run; more comments if I get time. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1451 "2014-08-13T19:02:55Z")
Exhibition: one **Clothahump**. 1. [Use of ethnic slurs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17620796&postcount=44). 2. [Warning received for use of same](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17620905&postcount=56) on an Internet message board. 3. [Refusal to acknowledge](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17629212&postcount=239) use of ethnic slurs. Verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1452 "2014-08-13T19:06:10Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > So the key is to ignore the studies that show you’re wrong? The brackets you cleverly left blank are for “laziness, cell minutes and M&M’s.” Very clever (and, from your perspective, necessary) wordsmithing to make it seem like I’m ignoring studies of some kind… Your own cite around the M&M chuckler showed what happens when that study was put to the test in New York to the tune of $75 Million, with motivation incentives for both students and teachers. Bupkiss happened. Go back and read the quote I cited from your M&M cite. Clever wordsmithing is not going to help your case here. Data might, but you are going to have a tough time finding any. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1453 "2014-08-13T19:07:17Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > with freebie non-genetic explanations In other words, the report he’s citing directly contradicts his theory, so please do what \*\*CP \*\*does and only read the first half. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1454 "2014-08-13T19:12:11Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The brackets you cleverly left blank are for “laziness, cell minutes and M&M’s.” > > Very clever (and, from your perspective, necessary) wordsmithing to make it seem like I’m ignoring studies of some kind… > > Your own cite around the M&M chuckler showed what happens when that study was put to the test in New York to the tune of $75 Million, with motivation incentives for both students and teachers. > > Bupkiss happened. > > Go back and read the quote I cited from your M&M cite. > > Clever wordsmithing is not going to help your case here. Data might, but you are going to have a tough time finding any. If you’re proud of your “laziness, cell minutes and M&M’s” comment, then own that shit, baby. It’s \*your \*personality on display here. And as to your stupid comment about the interventions not working–if Edison was a quitter like you we’d be sitting in the dark right now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1455 "2014-08-13T19:15:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If you’re proud of your “laziness, cell minutes and M&M’s” comment, then own that shit, baby. It’s \*your \*personality on display here. This thread is a lengthy testament to two things: **Chief Pedant** likes to say vile stuff, and under no circumstances will be take ownership of his own views. In fact he’ll shriek and whine like a spoiled toddler if you try to hold him to account for his opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1456 "2014-08-13T19:17:54Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [Here is a typical one, with freebie non-genetic explanations to cling to as a bonus. Deja vu.](http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html) > > I gotta run; more comments if I get time. Some of those non-genetic explanations are possibilities that I suggested earlier in this thread. But I would also add another possible factor. IMO, all the constant harping about racism by well-meaning people is discouraging black achievment. This works in 2 ways. 1) it convinces many black kids that there’s no hope because they’re facing an insurmountable obstacle in the form of societal racism, and 2) for those who don’t give up entirely, it suggests that the race-neutral amount of effort needed to be successful is lower than it actually is (and that white people are coasting based on skin color and connections). Either way, not conducive to encouraging kids to do their homework. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1457 "2014-08-13T19:23:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > In other words, the report he’s citing directly contradicts his theory, so please do what \*\*CP \*\*does and only read the first half. Do you have the ability to distinguish between facts and commentary? > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > If you’re proud of your “laziness, cell minutes and M&M’s” comment, then own that shit, baby. It’s \*your \*personality on display here. It was his comment, but he was characterizing your position. By that logic, people like you who keep harping about racists are making “racist comments”. Own that, baby. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1458 "2014-08-13T19:30:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It was his comment, but he was characterizing your position. Yes, and the fact that he characterizes this position in that manner gives provides some insight into how **Chief Pedant** really thinks. The difference is that he’s full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1459 "2014-08-13T19:32:41Z")
You’re holding him to a different standard than others. Sarcasm and hyperbole have been SOP in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519/1460 "2014-08-13T19:41:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re holding him to a different standard than others. Yes, I suppose it _is_ unfair that other people are characterizing **Chief Pedant** ’s arguments correctly and that he is characterizing **Evil Economist** ’s argument incorrectly. But I don’t see think carping at **Evil Economist** will fix that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-a-racist-warning-signs/692519.md?page=74)