# Are you considered to be a lawyer after finishing law school, or after passing the ba **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242 "2005-02-28T03:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/41 "2013-05-11T21:29:15Z")
Although technically you can practice once you’ve been admitted, I think that would be a very reckless thing to do unsupervised. And that is pretty much the accepted wisdom. So it’s puzzling that some sort of internship isn’t required like it is for physicians. NJ used to have a basic skills and methods course you had to complete which I know they have beefed up substantially, but AFAIK, there is still no mandatory internship period. It’s not always necessary depending on what you do with your degree, but if you will have direct contact with the courts, just learning your way around the court rules can be overwhelming. I got a copy of the annotated rules last year which includes legal commentary, ethics rules and other things and IIRC (it’s in the other room) it’s well over a thousand pages. Beyond that, anyone who goes into practice on their own without some sort of errors and omissions insurance is certifiable. You can’t escape personal liability, even with an LLC or some other device, so you had better have something to cover your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/42 "2013-05-12T01:31:57Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > My understanding is that Quebec is the major exception; CEGEP (junior college) graduates can enter professional programs like law (or even medicine) directly, without needing to get a general undergrad degree first. Of course Quebec’s education system has major differences from the rest of North America, mainly due to the aforementioned college-level in between school (which only goes up to grade 11) and university (most bachelor’s degree programs being 3 yrs rather 4). That’s correct. Which is why I’ve been contacted by the law school where I got my common law LL.B. with offers to convert to J.D., same as **Spoons** and **Muffin** , but not from the Quebec law school where I got my civil law LL.B. - as far as I know, they’re not converting to J.D. Like **Spoons** and **Muffin** , I have no intention of converting: (1) it won’t make any practical difference to me; (2) I earned an LL.B., not a J.D., dammit! None of this academic penis-envy stuff: (3) I like the rhythm of “N. Piper, LL.B., LL.B.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/43 "2013-05-12T01:38:23Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Although technically you can practice once you’ve been admitted, I think that would be a very reckless thing to do unsupervised. And that is pretty much the accepted wisdom. So it’s puzzling that some sort of internship isn’t required like it is for physicians. It is in Canada - generally, all applicants for the Bar have to serve a year of articles, for just that purpose. However, there is a drawback to that, same as for interning: what if you’re perfectly qualified, but times are tough, economically, and you can’t find a position? If firms aren’t hiring, you don’t get articles. But if you don’t serve articles, you can’t hang out your own shingle. That’s why Ontario is experimenting with a two-track process, the traditional articles, plus a non-articling process. I don’t know how it works, but it will be interesting to see if it spreads to other provinces. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/44 "2013-05-12T01:45:22Z")
For a take on the difficulties caused by the interning requirement, see this thread: [He didn’t match for interning and we’re really upset](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=683186). ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/45 "2013-05-12T07:10:51Z")
Maybe not mandatory. I mean for an MD, sure, not everyone practices on live patients, but even for ancillary occupations like medical research I imagine the experience would at least be useful. For lawyers, there are plenty that practice w/o ever seeing a client. I was one, mostly. I did research and writing almost exclusively. When I did see clients it was usually perfunctory - jail visits, arraignments, depositions, etc. But honestly, I never should have been at some of those depo’s. I didn’t know my ass from my elbow. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/46 "2013-05-12T14:00:41Z")
> [@wildkoala](#): > > I noticed that she has told me lies about how much she pays for her licence as well. She told me she pays in excess of $800 per year. Victoria AUS? Or Victoria CA? In AUS That would be the licence fee + insurance. She doesn’t need to ‘pass the bar exam’ to be a lawyer. Australia maintains a distinction between Barristers and Solicitors. Only Barristers need to take a Bar exam before they will be called to the Bar. The Bar is that bit of the court that separates the public (including other lawyers) from the judge. She needs a practice certificate to practice as a lawyer. I would say that, in Victoria, if she is practicing as a lawyer, in a legal practice, with a (limited) practice certificate, then she seems to be entitled to call herself a lawyer. But for other people: there is only a very limited number of things you aren’t allowed to call yourself in AUS, and that’s things like Donald Bradman, a member of the Police or Military, Honours, and a few things like that. “Lawyer” isn’t on the restricted list. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/47 "2013-05-12T17:18:10Z")
Obviously the question in the OP has been answered, well and exhaustively, by people more knowledgeable than I. One more data point, though: At the very large law firm where I work (IANAL), first-year associates who have been hired out of law school but who have not yet passed the bar (whether they have not yet taken it, or have taken it and failed to pass) are referred to as “law clerks,” _never_ as lawyers. This appears on their stationery, in their email sigs, and anywhere else their name appears, on paper or electronically. Lawyers who have been admitted to the bar in a given jurisdiction, but who are, for some reason, working in an office of the firm not in that jursdiction, have a disclaimer wherever their name appears saying something like “Admitted only in [Jurisdiction]. Practicing under the supervision of [some senior lawyer admitted in the relevant jurisdiction]” or something like that. Edit: This is a U.S. firm, with offices in several states, and overseas offices as well. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/48 "2013-05-12T17:23:18Z")
> [@Flipshod](#): > > After law school, but before you can say you’re a lawyer, your state bar folks get enough information on you to re-create your life from scratch. > > The overwhelming breach of privacy is a humiliating and draining act of submission to the State. > > Then again, in exchange for that, you get the ability to participate in and rely upon the violence and authority of the State . > > It’s really odd when you think of it in its rawest terms IANAL, but given that lawyers can act for their clients, sign papers for them, hold their money in the lawyer’s escrow account, issue subpoenas dragging people into court or forcing them to produce documents, and all kinds of stuff like that, a bit of investigation to determine if they are trustworthy seems entirely appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/49 "2013-05-12T17:36:05Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > The title should finish with …after passing the bar? > > In case that wasn’t obvious, of course. In Boston, lawyahs who have passed the ba are allowed to pahk theiah cah in Hahvahd yahd. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/50 "2013-05-12T20:49:19Z")
Slightly off the topic, I got my JD and passed the Ill. bar in 1966, but never practiced law. However, I needed to be a lawyer for the work I did. I examined title to r e for CTI and later became a staff attorney for SSA, OHA, never applying for an ALJ, but becoming a supervisory staff attorney before I retired in 1992. If you are licensed to practice law in any state you can be an attorney for the federal government in any state. If you are licensed in one state, you can not practice law in any other state without first passing that state’s bar. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/51 "2013-05-16T02:30:38Z")
I started this thread 8 years ago? Damn, I feel old. My friend eventually passed the bar for those of you waiting with bated breath these past 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/52 "2013-05-17T01:45:49Z")
The way it was explained to me in law school was that a lawyer is someone who is learned in the law, while an attorney (at law) is authorized to represent clients in court. Thus, law students are, technically, lawyers, but not attorneys (until they pass the bar and admitted to practice.) Of course, in everyday speech, the terms are used interchangeably. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/53 "2013-05-17T01:53:58Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > I started this thread 8 years ago? Damn, I feel old. > > My friend eventually passed the bar for those of you waiting with bated breath these past 8 years. In those 8 years, I have finished by bachelors degree and graduated from law school…Well, on Saturday I graduate. But I’m definitely not eligible to practice law until I’ve passed the bar exam, passed the character and fitness interview (and yes, it is absolutely humiliating to have to disclose every time you didn’t send your Mom a birthday card), and then be sworn in before the state supreme court. Then I get to practice law… ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/54 "2013-05-17T05:34:13Z")
Gratz on you getting your J.D.? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/55 "2013-05-17T07:06:31Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > The way it was explained to me in law school was that a lawyer is someone who is learned in the law, while an attorney (at law) is authorized to represent clients in court. Thus, law students are, technically, lawyers, but not attorneys (until they pass the bar and admitted to practice.) Of course, in everyday speech, the terms are used interchangeably. Here in Canada, as explained above, graduates from a law school have to _article_. It’s basically a one-year apprenticeship when you practice under the supervision of an experienced lawyer, and study for and write the bar exams. So we have some interesting terminology for each step of the way: – When you attend law school, you are a “law student.” – When you are articling, you are a “student-at-law,” or an “articling student.” – When you are admitted, you are a “barrister and solicitor,” or simply a “lawyer.” Interestingly, we don’t use the term “attorney” to refer to a person admitted to the bar. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/56 "2013-05-17T10:14:32Z")
But you do have things like (provincial & federal) Attorneys-General and Crown Attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/57 "2013-05-17T11:18:45Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > When I got my law degree in 1966, I did not have to get a JD. An LLB would suffice. (I do have a JD, BTW). Perhaps things have changed. Mostly what has changed is that is it, for the most part, not possible to get an LL.B. in the United States. Almost all law schools call their initial law degree “J.D.” > [@kurtisokc](#): > > The way it was explained to me in law school was that a lawyer is someone who is learned in the law, while an attorney (at law) is authorized to represent clients in court. Thus, law students are, technically, lawyers, but not attorneys (until they pass the bar and admitted to practice.) Of course, in everyday speech, the terms are used interchangeably. I don’t know whether or how many people make this distinction as stated by Kurt, but it’s pretty nonsensical. A lawyer is someone who is authorized to practice law. An attorney is a person’s representative or agent. An attorney at law is a lawyer who represents someone. You are a lawyer when you are admitted to the bar. You are someone’s attorney when you get a client. > [@alphaboi867](#): > > But you do have things like (provincial & federal) Attorneys-General and Crown Attorneys. Those are specific job titles. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/58 "2013-05-17T14:00:36Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > The way it was explained to me in law school was that a lawyer is someone who is learned in the law, while an attorney (at law) is authorized to represent clients in court. Thus, law students are, technically, lawyers, but not attorneys (until they pass the bar and admitted to practice.) Of course, in everyday speech, the terms are used interchangeably. There may be difference here between different countries. As **Spoons** has said, that definition of lawyer wouldn’t be used in Canada; someone who has a law degree but hasn’t been called is not a lawyer, they’re just someone with a law degree. In fact, in some Canadian provinces, the term “lawyer” is restricted by statute to individuals who have been called, and it is an offence for someone who has not been called to refer to themselves as a lawyer. See the Saskatchewan [Legal Profession Act](http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/English/Statutes/Statutes/L10-1.pdf): > [@](#): > > **Eligibility as lawyer > 24**(1) Any person may apply to the society to be admitted as a lawyer, and the society may admit that person as a member if that person: > > (a) produces evidence satisfactory to the benchers of service as a student-at- law or practice as a lawyer; > > (b) produces evidence that the person has completed a legal education program that is prescribed in the rules; > > (c) complies with the rules; and > > (d) fulfils any other requirement that the benchers may prescribe. > … > **False pretences > 32**(2) No person who is not a member in good standing shall use the designations “barrister”, “solicitor”, “barrister and solicitor”, “lawyer” or “attorney”. As well, we would definitely not use the phrase “learned in the law” to describe someone who has a law degree but has never been called. “Learned in the law” is the catchphrase used to describe someone who has been appointed a Queen’s Counsel, which normally requires at least 10 years experience at the bar, and often more like 20. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/59 "2013-05-17T14:02:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > [QUOTE=alphaboi867] > > But you do have things like (provincial & federal) Attorneys-General and Crown Attorneys. Those are specific job titles. [/QUOTE] That’s correct. And “Crown Attorney” is not used in all jurisdictions, nor at the federal level. “Crown prosecutor” or “Crown counsel” are the more common terms. In my province, the only person with “Attorney” in their job title is the Attorney General. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242/60 "2013-05-18T08:59:58Z")
Where I am, an attorney is someone who acts on behalf of someone (i.e. an agent), and does not have to be a lawyer. For example, the attorney of a Power of Attorney could be your tap dancing uncle Fred Mertz. Back in Merry Old, a solicitor would act as your attorney in legal matters (i.e. attorney-at-law), whereas a barrister would not act as an attorney and instead would simply present the case on behalf of the attorney. That’s why it makes perfect sense that in Ontario, Canada, a solicitor usually must hold the degree of Barrister-at-Law (Fred, cue the rim-shot). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-considered-to-be-a-lawyer-after-finishing-law-school-or-after-passing-the-ba/292242.md?page=4)