# Are you feeling enough shame and guilt, you bad women? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783 "2014-06-27T15:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/201 "2014-07-02T01:54:20Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _sigh_ > > Serious question, **Der Trihs** , where do you stand on the literal existence of unicorns, pegasi, hippogriffs, Frankenstein’s Monster, vampiric Count Dracula, the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Rodan, Mothra, and The Creeper from Scooby Doo? :dubious: They’re all known to be fictional. Anti-abortion fanatics are _not_ fictional; they have created a great deal of suffering, often while outright gloating about it. They _like it_ when women die because of them. > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I didn’t know that could happen, and always thought before that women weren’t slaves to their hormones. Now that I have some perspective, it’s hard to believe it happened, but I was out of my mind for several months, and I couldn’t even take anything for it, because I was pregnant. We’re _all_ slaves to our hormones, both men and women. Pregnant women just tend to have the fact rubbed in their face hard enough that they have trouble pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/202 "2014-07-02T02:08:28Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > There might not actually be real help for women who’ve had abortions. They might be getting some ultra-religious gasbag berating and slut-shaming them. > > And I don’t use anti-abortionist. I use anti-choice. I’m pro-choice, but I’ve never had an abortion, and the circumstances under which I’d have one would be more limited than maybe the next woman’s. But that’s MY choice. Exactly. It seems pretty obvious that this line of attack, just like the CPCs, is an attempt to evangelize. I don’t use anti-abortionist, because for now we don’t see many of these people lining up to support a [proven way to collapse the abortion rate](http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/05/study-free-birth-control-significantly-cuts-abortion-rates/): subsidized LARCs (IUDs and implants) and sex ed. [Some of them are](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/11/the-battle-over-contraception-in-the-pro-life-movement.html), and a small few genuinely anti-abortion folks have for a long time (from the very hardcore straight-edge community; I read a note in a CD booklet from one band stating that their vegan stances led them to oppose abortion, but they totally rejected opposing abortion through laws). I don’t call them pro-life, since very few of them seem to oppose war. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/203 "2014-07-02T02:31:42Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I don’t call them pro-life, since very few of them seem to oppose war. Or the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/204 "2014-07-02T04:46:48Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > \*Not sure why all of a sudden everyone is saying “anti-abortionist” in this thread instead of pro-life. Doesn’t seem so kosher from the other side, does it? Pro-life is just such a transparently loaded phrase. “I’m pro-life!” “Oh, you mean you’re against wars?” “Nope, voted for the republican party!” “Oh, you mean you’re against the death penalty?” “Nope, support that too!” “Oh, so you mean you’re in favor of ending starvation in the US?” “Nope, I voted to cut government spending on anti-poverty programs!” It’s just so _meaningless_. Be honest - you’re not pro-life, you’re anti-abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/205 "2014-07-02T05:03:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What other decisions that have no effect on anyone outside of one’s body are “people’s business”? Smoking weed comes to mind. Not that I personally agree it’s other people’s business, but as of right now in over half of the West, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/206 "2014-07-02T13:26:50Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > \*Not sure why all of a sudden everyone is saying “anti-abortionist” in this thread instead of pro-life. Doesn’t seem so kosher from the other side, does it? Uhhh…because they are anti-abortion. The whole pro-life label offends me as a wordsmith. How do you feel about them’s labeling us “pro-abortion”? A word Alcorn uses in his book, stating “To be pro-choice is to be pro-abortion.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/207 "2014-07-02T13:42:18Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Uhhh…because they are anti-abortion. The whole pro-life label offends me as a wordsmith. > > How do you feel about them’s labeling us “pro-abortion”? A word Alcorn uses in his book, stating “To be pro-choice is to be pro-abortion.” Ironically, while “anti-abortion” more or less concisely sums up the pro-life position adequately and neutrally, “pro-abortion” is a complete misrepresentation of the pro-choice position. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/208 "2014-07-02T14:42:41Z")
In Randy Alcorn’s book, he writes about how the press is so “pro-abortion” because they use the words “pro-choice” and “anti-abortion,” making one side “good” and one side “bad.” ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/209 "2014-07-02T15:09:25Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > How do you feel about them’s labeling us “pro-abortion”? A word Alcorn uses in his book, stating “To be pro-choice is to be pro-abortion.” My mother is the only pro-abortion person I know. She really thinks not enough abortions happen. Personally, I can’t wrap my head around things like people going to term with a fetus with a lethal defect, like anencephaly, but I recognize that it isn’t my business. Other than my mother, I don’t know anyone who thinks abortion should be legal, but who doesn’t think the decision whether or not to have one in any particular case should rest entirely with the woman who is pregnant. I even know some Orthodox Jews who are in their own minds against abortion, and to them it does feel like “killing a baby,” but they still don’t believe in outlawing abortion, because they recognize that their moral objection is not everyone’s, and shouldn’t be legislated anymore than bacon should be illegal. I suppose there are probably people who are not completely anti-abortion, just anti-women-making-choices. They’d like to go back to the days when women could get abortions if they went before a hospital board to plead their case, and a panel of men (it was always men before R v. W, and I’m sure these people imagine it as men again) would decide whether or not to grant them an abortion. I’d be OK with calling anti-abortionists “anti-choice,” but I’m not OK with calling them “pro-life.” I actually remember a time when they were OK with being called “anti-abortion.” I’m not sure what changed. They just don’t want to be perceived as “anti” anything, I guess. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/210 "2014-07-02T15:20:16Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I actually remember a time when they were OK with being called “anti-abortion.” I’m not sure what changed. They just don’t want to be perceived as “anti” anything, I guess. Good luck with that. No group wants to be called ‘anti’ anything anymore. It sounds too negative in the public eye. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/211 "2014-07-02T18:01:18Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > No group wants to be called ‘anti’ anything anymore. It sounds too negative in the public eye. I’m anti-torture. I’m anti-death penalty, anti-starvation, anti-racism, anti-sexism… No. I don’t think your reasoning works. When the thing that comes after the anti is something I’m actually against, I have no problem being called “anti” it. I tend to call myself “pro abortion rights” when I’m getting into such a discussion. I’d be happy to call it “anti forced birth” too. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/212 "2014-07-02T19:57:27Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > In Randy Alcorn’s book, he writes about how the press is so “pro-abortion” because they use the words “pro-choice” and “anti-abortion,” making one side “good” and one side “bad.” Which is asinine if abortion is bad. You know, like it is in his head. Being anti-\ does not make your side “bad”. But even then, you don’t get to randomly and arbitrarily rename your position. If you are against the death penalty, you don’t get to call yourself “pro-justice” just because you dislike the label “anti-X”. If you are against something, _label yourself as such._ ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/213 "2014-07-02T20:05:43Z")
Yeah. I have absolutely no problem with being called anti-vivisectionist, anti-DOMA, anti-death penalty, or even anti-KKK, if the occasion calls for it. I’m also anti-woo, in that I find it highly objectionable that the NIH actually has a well-funded program devoted to “alternative and complimentary medicine.” Come to think of it, I’m also really more anti-Republican than I am a true Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/214 "2014-07-02T21:10:19Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yeah. I have absolutely no problem with being called anti-vivisectionist, anti-DOMA, anti-death penalty, or even anti-KKK, if the occasion calls for it. I’m also anti-woo, in that I find it highly objectionable that the NIH actually has a well-funded program devoted to “alternative and complimentary medicine.” > > Come to think of it, I’m also really more anti-Republican than I am a true Democrat. Yeah, I’m not anti-anti either! 🙂 /Pro-anti. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/215 "2014-07-02T21:23:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: They’re all known to be fictional. Anti-abortion fanatics are _not_ fictional; they have created a great deal of suffering, often while outright gloating about it. They _like it_ when women die because of them. And yet you continue to insist on characterizing them (even within that sentence) in terms that are really more suited to those fictional characters I asked you about than to living, breathing, political-power-wielding human beings. That right there is why some 15-30%\* of the flak you get here on the Dope comes from people on your side, you dolt. \*WAG, based entirely on my personal observations. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/216 "2014-07-02T22:21:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And yet you continue to insist on characterizing them (even within that sentence) in terms that are really more suited to those fictional characters I asked you about than to living, breathing, political-power-wielding human beings. Because they are genuinely _that awful._ And I’m not going to pretend that they aren’t just because it’s taboo to _admit_ just how vicious the Right and the religious are. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/217 "2014-07-02T22:43:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And yet you continue to insist on characterizing them (even within that sentence) in terms that are really more suited to those fictional characters I asked you about than to living, breathing, political-power-wielding human beings. > > That right there is why some 15-30%\* of the flak you get here on the Dope comes from people on your side, you dolt. > > \*WAG, based entirely on my personal observations. That’s low by a factor of at least 2, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/218 "2014-07-03T12:26:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they are genuinely _that awful._ And I’m not going to pretend that they aren’t just because it’s taboo to _admit_ just how vicious the Right and the religious are. Bahh. Some of them might be that awful, but considering that many change sides over the course of their lives, many of them are just misguided. Sometimes good people have the wrong opinions. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/219 "2014-07-03T12:29:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they are genuinely _that awful._ And I’m not going to pretend that they aren’t just because it’s taboo to _admit_ just how vicious the Right and the religious are. All bigots think they are really telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/220 "2014-07-03T12:50:04Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I hate speaking up for a side I personally disagree with. That being said, I feel I ought to contribute this. > > My high school buddy’s wife was conceived out of wedlock around 1960. So, she sees a pro-choice view as someone saying she should have been aborted. So she’s pro-life / anti-abortion, and their children were raised to believe that. About 6 years ago, their then 19 year old unmarried daughter, W, got pregnant. Abortion was never an option for her. She decided on an open adoption. So the real parents of Josh and W stay in contact via email and visits are made. And every year there’s a pile of packages under my friend’s Exmas tree from his bio-mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle for Josh. > > I guess I’m saying this to offer a case where some anti-abortion people are not misogynistic female enslavers. > > Personally, I think abortion is the worst method of birth control. But since I don’t have a uterus, I also think I’ll never know what it’s like to go through an unwanted pregnancy and that I have no business telling or legislating what a woman can and cannot do with her uterus. I was born in 1961, and adopted at 4 days old. Had abortion been legal and accessible in 1961 I doubt I’d be here, and that though doesn’t bother me one bit. I’ve enjoyed my life so far, but I really don’t think my not being born would have changed anything much, except possibly for a double handful of animals in need of homes. I’m absolutely 100% pro-choice, and until we as a society find a way to make birth control affordable and available and effective for EVERYone, I think abortion is not as evil as bringing an unwanted child onto this overcrowded planet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=12)