# Are you feeling enough shame and guilt, you bad women? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783 "2014-06-27T15:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/261 "2014-07-10T14:15:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope, because the “pro-lifers” aren’t operating from a generally accepted equivalence when it comes to “life”. Here’s a more succinct refutation of your argument: > > The Innocence Project, the “pro-life” movement, and pretty much everybody else share the same basic presupposition that _The lives of innocent human persons should not be taken away_. > > The obvious question to ask of any organization that claims to be fighting under the banner of that principle is, _How is your cause about the lives of innocent human persons?_ > > The Innocence Project answers that question straightforwardly with “Well, these prisoners are obviously human persons, duh, and here’s the evidence that they’re actually innocent of the crimes they were wrongly convicted of.” > > The “pro-life” movement, on the other hand, responds with “Well, these pre-borns are obviously innocent, duh, and they count as human persons because…because…God says so, or it’s more humane, or they’re going to count indisputably as human persons at some point in their development so we should count them as such right from the get-go, or they just are because they are.” > > That second response is clearly a much less objective and straightforward answer than the first. So if the “pro-life” movement wants to make a consistent and credible case for their position, they need to bear witness to the importance of treating “pre-born” lives as fully equivalent to other human lives in **all** circumstances. Not just when somebody’s trying to abort one. This is a wordy way to say “The Innocence Project is right and the pro-life movement is wrong, therefore the pro-life movement is hypocritical.” This obviously does not follow logically, because hypocrisy consists of avowing a belief but not acting in accordance with it. This is not the case with the pro-life movement, so they are not hypocritical. The flip side of this is that the Innocence Project would be hypocritical if they refused to support the death penalty for the [roughly half](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project) of those whose guilt is shown by DNA evidence who appeal to them. Not to mention that you are (unsuccessfully) trying to move the goalposts. Earlier you were arguing that it was the fact that pro-lifers were only concentrating on what they consider deliberate causes of death that made them hypocrites. I see from your unacknowledged abandonment of that position in favor of another, equally wrong-headed one that you recognize that you have been refuted. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Mind your own damned business. > > Regards, > > Those of us who actually have a uterus. I am minding my own business. And the state of your innards is of no consequence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/262 "2014-07-10T14:25:42Z")
Oh, please. I didn’t hear any “pro-life” person speak up against AIDS, a disease with a **100%** mortality rate. For 10 years they ignored it, saying it was God’s punishment for “those people”–you know, queers and junkies. I bet you more of them are still harassing women instead of raising funds for AIDS research. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/263 "2014-07-10T14:33:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The flip side of this is that the Innocence Project would be hypocritical if they refused to support the death penalty for the [roughly half](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project) of those whose guilt is shown by DNA evidence who appeal to them. Come again? This…doesn’t seem to make any sense. How exactly would this be hypocritical? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/264 "2014-07-10T18:19:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is a wordy way to say “The Innocence Project is right and the pro-life movement is wrong, therefore the pro-life movement is hypocritical.” This is a wordy attempt to avoid admitting the fact that you don’t actually have any logical rebuttal of my explanation of why the Innocence Project is not analogous to the “pro-life” movement on this issue. > [@Shodan](#): > > Earlier you were arguing that it was the fact that pro-lifers were only concentrating on what they consider deliberate causes of death that made them hypocrites. I was arguing that it is the fact that “pro-lifers” only concentrate on what they consider deliberate causes of death, _ **with the implicit but inconsistently applied assumption that such deaths count as the destruction of fully human lives** _, that makes them hypocrites. And I still am. And you still aren’t able to refute it. Keep on floundering around trying to contradict it all you want, though. As I said to **elucidator** , this isn’t about trying to get through to you individually; this is about using a discussion to illustrate to posters like **gigi** and others where the “pro-life” movement’s standard arguments are logically falling short. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/265 "2014-07-10T22:05:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But if you’d read more carefully, you would have realized that I wasn’t talking only about “pregnancies where the woman knows she’s pregnant”. I was talking about **ALL** fertilized ova from the moment of fertilization onward, of which total [approximately one-half die before birth](http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm). > > In other words, we’re talking around **FIVE OR SIX MILLION** “pre-born” deaths annually from natural causes in the US alone. Yes indeed, that’s **WAY** more than the corresponding number of abortions. Yes, I did know that. You used the word “immense” to describe the difference and they are both in the low millions. In addition, the dismay seemed to be people’s reactions to miscarriage versus abortion, and they can’t have a reaction to something they never knew about. And yes, I would be more concered about people actively killing toddlers than them dying of natural causes. Millions of people die of natural causes every year; I’d be more concerned about a society that euthanized a much smaller number of them. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Witness gigi, who I’m quite willing to believe is perfectly sincere in her commitment to a “fetal personhood” stance in the abstract, obliviously passing over the existence of multiple millions of actual embryo deaths annually, because they happen before the woman realizes she’s pregnant. That’s not deliberate hypocrisy, that’s just an entrenched lapsus logicae that most “pro-lifers” simply haven’t thought about. How was I passing over them? I know that I won’t change your mind and I’m not trying to. But please tell me you can see the difference between actively killing an embryo versus it dying of natural causes? And that someone can work to end abortion and also work for prenatal health and to decrease infant mortality from natural causes? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/266 "2014-07-11T01:44:28Z")
> [@Lonnie](#): > > But it really is none of my business as I am past the age of having babies. The only persons concerned as to whether or not an abortion should take place are the woman/mother, her doctor, and the man/father if applicable, and in that order. > > Abortion is like so many other areas of concern. If we would all mind our own business, there would be fewer problems in the world. Who was it said that most of the problems in the world are caused by people wanting to feel important? To get involved in something that does not impact nor concern you is doing just that. Politicians included. Are there any social issues that don’t impact you directly that you still get involved in? ---
**Author:** ![Lonnie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Lonnie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lonnie)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/267 "2014-07-11T02:13:35Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Are there any social issues that don’t impact you directly that you still get involved in? Hi GiGi, Can’t think of any off the top of my head. I got involved in the David Suzuki Foundation that works to understand and value nature and thus the environment because my health has been severly impacted personally by the pollution of our air, food, and water. And I wish to leave an inhabitable world to my grans. However, I was not excluding myself when I said “If WE would all mind our own business…”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/268 "2014-07-11T14:04:11Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > How was I passing over them? Because I said > [@Kimstu](#): > > somewhere over one-half of all fertilized ova fail to survive and you responded > [@gigi](#): > > There are roughly four million live births in the US each year. There are roughly one million abortions each year in the US. Given that 15-20% of pregnancies where the women knows she’s pregnant end in miscarriage, that’s about one million known miscarriages. In the same ballpark. Your response completely ignored, i.e., passed over, the several million of those fertilized ova that each year fail to survive **without** falling into the “known miscarriages” category. Either you simply weren’t aware of those millions of deaths annually, or you thought that they somehow just “didn’t count” in terms of estimating the impact of various threats to “pre-born” life. Both of which attitudes seem rather inconsistent with the much-trumpeted “pro-life” assumption that every fertilized ovum counts as a fully human person from the very moment of its fertilization, and its life thenceforth is just as valuable and precious as every other human life. > [@gigi](#): > > But please tell me you can see the difference between actively killing an embryo versus it dying of natural causes? No, **in the case of non-humans, there is not necessarily any ethical difference whatsoever between deliberate killings and natural deaths.** For example, not being an extreme animal-rights supporter, I consider there is no ethical difference between humanely killing an animal for food or pest control and the natural death of such an animal. _If you want to convince me that I should regard embryos as fully human persons (and consequently that aborting them is morally worse than their dying naturally), you first have to convince me that **you** genuinely and consistently regard embryos as fully human persons. If you don’t, then you’re a hypocrite._ And when you are oblivious of or indifferent to the fact that about five times as many embryos/blastocysts die naturally as are aborted—while _the “pro-life” movement that is supposedly all about valuing and defending “pre-born” life doesn’t seem to think that this catastrophic and tragic destruction of “pre-born” life on a huge scale is worth any serious attention_—then you definitely don’t come across as genuinely and consistently regarding embryos as fully human persons. So I call hypocrisy. And you have yet to make any point that logically challenges that call. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/269 "2014-07-11T14:37:18Z")
If you know that life begins at conception, how do you know “every miscarriage is a natural death”? Surely some woman are responsible for their miscarriages, and should be prosecuted for murder. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/270 "2014-07-11T14:42:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > For example, not being an extreme animal-rights supporter, I consider there is no ethical difference… Nitpicky point of order: It does not require holding an extreme point of view in order to see an ethical difference between killing and natural death in nonhumans. . ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/271 "2014-10-08T18:20:30Z")
The subject of OP is at it again with more reprehensible opinions on women he couldn’t resist interjecting in a SSM debate: > [@Supreme Court \[declines to hear\] same sex marriage cases.\[plus further developments (Ed.)\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/103): > > 1. Married women were never considered ‘property’ in Christian civilizations. They didn’t have the same rights as their husbands, but neither did children, and certainly no one would describe children as property. Nope, nothing wrong in equating women’s rights with that of children. > [@Supreme Court \[declines to hear\] same sex marriage cases.\[plus further developments (Ed.)\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/103): > > 1. It’s true that marriage has shifted, in the minds of many, from having a distinct leader and a follower, a superior and a subordinate, to being a supposed ‘partnership of equals’. You’ll of course pardon me if I don’t view that as a good thing, and view it as part of the breakdown of authority in the liberal west. Those uppity women who just couldn’t settle for their ‘follower’ and ‘subordinate’ position and now they are responsible for the “breakdown of authority in the liberal west!” **Hector\_St\_Clare** , there are some places in the world that share your view of marriage. Primarily theocratic third world countries. > [@Supreme Court \[declines to hear\] same sex marriage cases.\[plus further developments (Ed.)\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/103): > > Gay marriage is a result of the way that we (or many of us) have come to view marriage, and so it’s both inevitable and (in a sense) the fair thing to do. I don’t oppose it, as a legal matter. But don’t expect me to approve the modern construct called ‘marriage’ which has largely replaced the older idea. Lastly, here he is lamenting for a return to the Dark Ages … Despicable. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/272 "2014-10-08T21:56:09Z")
Children sure as hell were considered a man’s property up until about the middle of the 19th century, in both the US, and pretty much all European nations. I’m not sure what HSt.C’s definition of a Christian nation is-- whether he means one where a form of Christianity is the official religion, but the country isn’t a theocracy, or whether it must actually be a theocracy-- but wives have been “chattel” in many nations where Christianity was the majority religion. What the heck does he think the little ceremony of a father giving a daughter to her husband at the wedding harken back to? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/273 "2014-10-08T22:11:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The flip side of this is that the Innocence Project would be hypocritical if they refused to support the death penalty for the [roughly half](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project) of those whose guilt is shown by DNA evidence who appeal to them. You’re really fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/274 "2014-10-08T22:53:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re really fucking stupid. Seriously. It’s possible to both think that innocent people who are wrongly incarcerated should be released, and that rightly incarcerated people should remain that way, and not be executed. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/275 "2014-10-09T02:21:44Z")
Daaaamn this thread grew fast. > [@Kimstu](#): > > They generally just don’t realize the illogicality implied in combining pro-life claims with prevailing societal concepts of embryos and fetuses. Witness **gigi** , who I’m quite willing to believe is perfectly sincere in her commitment to a “fetal personhood” stance in the abstract, obliviously passing over the existence of multiple millions of **actual** embryo deaths annually, because they happen before the woman realizes she’s pregnant. That’s not **deliberate** hypocrisy, that’s just an entrenched _lapsus logicae_ that most “pro-lifers” simply haven’t thought about. Yeah. I had a miscarriage last month and all the sudden people started sending me all these pro-life themed articles - a lot of which basically pretended to actually give a shit about women who had miscarriages but were really just using that as a thin veneer to push their propaganda. That pissed me right the fuck off, as did all the bullshit comments about how it was meant to be and that someday I would meet my fetus in heaven. The idea that ‘‘God’’ has some divine plan when a baby is conceived is a fucking joke. ‘‘God’’ forces women to have abortions all the fucking time. At least 20% of the time but if you include the unknowns it could be as high as 50%. We don’t get a say in the matter. It’s some sick fucking shit to believe that a deity aborts babies at will and then somehow gives a shit about the ‘‘miracle of life’’ when some women choose to do it on their own. My Mom is one of these people. I was conceived by rape and she didn’t abort me and now she’s like super pro life because I’m a gift from God or some shit. Like i didn’t notice how much my existence fucked up her life or how difficult my life was because I was brought into a world where I created more hardship than joy. We’ve healed from the utter clusterfuck that was her attempt to raise me, but that doesn’t change the fact that bringing me into the world was really not the best plan. I don’t mean it in a self-deprecating or traumatized way when I state very matter of factly that I probably should never have been born. I’m actually, I would say, pro-religion but I would like to hail a hearty ‘‘fuck you!’’ to all the people out there who want to control my right to procreate on the grounds that somehow there’s a benevolent being that gives a flying fuck about human life. We live in a world where people who desperately want children are not able to have them, where women who are unprepared for children have them forced upon them, and meanwhile thousands and thousands of children languish in foster care without hope of having loving parents. Either there is no such thing as God or God is a fucking hypocritical patriarchal sadist. The women’s ‘‘curse’’ we were taught in Sunday School, is having to have a period and go through labor and shit. Now that I’ve experienced it I know the real curse is losing your fucking unborn child and you are not going to sit there and tell me that came from a loving God and in the same goddamn breath tell me God thinks it’s wrong to kill children. No. Fucking. Way. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/276 "2014-10-09T02:41:58Z")
I’m very sorry to hear that, **Spice Weasel** : all the condolences. And it sucks that people are using your bereavement to push their own political agendas on abortion, too. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/277 "2014-10-09T03:06:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m very sorry to hear that, **Spice Weasel** : all the condolences. And it sucks that people are using your bereavement to push their own political agendas on abortion, too. Yeah, I’m totally not bitter or anything. 😛 Oh, and just so we’re super clear, the only reason i would ever get an elective abortion is to save my own life. I just figured out sometime in my development of consciousness as a participating member of American society that using my own personal beliefs to limit the freedom of others is a pretty shitty thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/278 "2014-10-09T03:22:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Either there is no such thing as God or God is a fucking hypocritical patriarchal sadist. I originally typed “amen.” That didn’t seem quite appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/279 "2014-10-09T03:44:05Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > How was I passing over them? I know that I won’t change your mind and I’m not trying to. But please tell me you can see the difference between actively killing an embryo versus it dying of natural causes? And that someone can work to end abortion and also work for prenatal health and to decrease infant mortality from natural causes? I just wanted to let you know that I completely understand your point even if others don’t seem to quite understand. Humans die of natural causes at EVERY stage of development - it would be more strange if embryos/fetuses didn’t ever die of natural causes. Then maybe the pro-choicers who try to argue fetuses aren’t even alive might have a point. If we want to accuse people of hypocrisy, what about looking at the hypocrisy of the pro-choice side: How many people out there who pat themselves on the back for being “pro-choice” have **actually done something concrete to help a woman make a choice other than abortion**? How many “pro-choice” people have **personally** welcomed a pregnant woman into their home, fed and clothed her, offered help with childcare, etc. to make sure that the woman could choose what she truly wanted to do instead of feeling forced to abort out of desperation? Faced with a desperate woman who doesn’t really want to abort but feels forced to do it, a lot of pro-choicers would take the attitude of “Welp, I did my part by printing out directions to the abortion clinic for her. Now I can wash my hands of the situation and forget about the whole thing.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/280 "2014-10-09T03:50:10Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > If we want to accuse people of hypocrisy, what about looking at the hypocrisy of the pro-choice side: How many people out there who pat themselves on the back for being “pro-choice” have **actually done something concrete to help a woman make a choice other than abortion**? You mean like lobbying for better health care, access to free birth control, better welfare, better food stamps, help with child care, better jobs, increase in minimum wages, child support enforcement, narrowing the income gap, better infrastructure, paid days off, parent-friendly workplaces, equal pay, public transportation, and a lack of judgment about single motherhood? Most of us, actually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=15)