# Are you feeling enough shame and guilt, you bad women? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783 "2014-06-27T15:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/281 "2014-10-09T04:05:29Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Like i didn’t notice how much my existence fucked up her life or how difficult my life was because I was brought into a world where I created more hardship than joy. According to what you have posted on here, your mother has borderline personality disorder. Pretty much everyone with borderline personality disorder has a fucked up life. Do you really think that as a tiny baby you had the power to somehow fuck up her life more than whatever trauma/chaos caused her personality disorder in the first place? Is it possible that your history of depression is causing you to blame yourself for something that really isn’t your fault at all? I am sure that your childhood was very difficult living with a person who had borderline personality disorder, but children of abuse should never blame themselves for the abuse. This is quite literally blaming the victim - even if you are doing it to yourself instead of other victims. > [@](#): > > Now that I’ve experienced it I know the real curse is losing your fucking unborn child and you are not going to sit there and tell me that came from a loving God and in the same goddamn breath tell me God thinks it’s wrong to kill children. No. Fucking. Way. It does sound like you are grieving a great deal right now, and I can understand why you resent people trying to tell you that there is a God who is in control of all the shitty things that happen in this world. My own view is that religion has nothing to do with the abortion debate and it is unfortunate that so much of the focus is on the religious aspect. For someone like me, that seems as ridiculous as it would if EVERY time someone mentioned the death penalty, it was treated as if the only people who are against the death penalty are Catholics. One of the reasons I am pro-life because I have met women who have had abortions and grieved/regretted that decision just as some women such as yourself have grieved over miscarriages. Another reason that I am pro-life because I feel that the same things that make my own child valuable enough that I would never want to have an abortion also apply to other children who don’t happen to be related to me or happen to implant in my uterus. You may disagree with those types of reasons, but they have nothing to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/282 "2014-10-09T04:19:16Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > One of the reasons I am pro-life because I have met women who have had abortions and grieved/regretted that decision just as some women such as yourself have grieved over miscarriages. What about the number of women who haven’t had such regrets and the number of women who had no choice but to have babies they didn’t want? Because statistically, most women don’t regret abortions they have. But when they don’t have them but wanted them? They are more likely to have physical problems and are more likely to be in poverty than women who have abortions. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/283 "2014-10-09T04:28:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You mean like lobbying for better health care, access to free birth control, better welfare, better food stamps, help with child care, better jobs, increase in minimum wages, child support enforcement, narrowing the income gap, better infrastructure, paid days off, parent-friendly workplaces, equal pay, public transportation, and a lack of judgment about single motherhood? Most of us, actually. “Most” pro-choicers do all those things? What do you base that on? Even if you are trying to say that voting Democrat covers all those bases (which is fairly weak, since plenty of people no doubt vote Dem for reasons that don’t have anything to do with caring about if women are forced to resort to abortion), a significant number of Americans don’t even bother to vote, much less “lobby” for social justice. Every day, there are women crying in the recovery room of your local abortion clinic who never wanted to be there in the first place - who maybe only are there because nobody in their life offered them support or encouragement. You can pat yourself on the back because you pulled the lever for a Democrat or wrote a letter to your congressman, and maybe someday years from now things might be different - but that won’t help the woman who is crying today because nobody was there to help her. If you really mean it when you say you are pro-choice, then that should bother you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/284 "2014-10-09T04:39:25Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > “Most” pro-choicers do all those things? What do you base that on? Most of the people you’re talking to, yes. You know, the actual human beings you’re talking to on this board? And yes, voting Democratic is voting for all of those things I listed. Actual, real attempts to lessen the need for abortion by reducing unwanted pregnancy and increasing the support for all women and children. Imagine. > [@](#): > > are women crying in the recovery room of your local abortion clinic who never wanted to be there in the first place - who maybe only are there because nobody in their life offered them support or encouragement. You can pat yourself on the back because you pulled the lever for a Democrat or wrote a letter to your congressman, and maybe someday years from now things might be different - but that won’t help the woman who is crying today because nobody was there to help her. If you really mean it when you say you are pro-choice, then that should bother you. While you pat your back for making sure things will never be different. You visionary, you. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/285 "2014-10-09T04:46:24Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I just wanted to let you know that I completely understand your point even if others don’t seem to quite understand. Nobody failed to understand the point **gigi** was trying to make; we were simply pointing out where her arguments were flawed. > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Humans die of natural causes at EVERY stage of development - it would be more strange if embryos/fetuses didn’t ever die of natural causes. Human persons do not die of natural causes at rates of around 40-60% of the entire population annually. Human embryos, on the other hand, do. The fact that you blithely take that kind of prenatal attrition rate for granted—and regard it as much less important than the much smaller number of prenatal deaths caused by deliberate abortion—suggests very strongly that on some level you don’t truly consider embryos to be fully human persons either, even though you believe you do. > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Then maybe the pro-choicers who try to argue fetuses aren’t even alive might have a point. No “pro-choicer” is arguing that fetuses “aren’t even alive”. Of course they’re alive. But early-term fetuses are not, IMO, fully human persons entitled to full human rights from the very instant of conception. And if you claim to believe that they are, then your lack of concern about the fact that **about half of them die of natural causes every year** is seriously undermining your claim. If anywhere near half of all born human beings were dying of natural causes every year, it would be a world-shaking tragic catastrophe: nobody would be able to talk about anything else. But abortion opponents, who claim to value the life of every invisible fertilized ovum as highly as that of any other human being, don’t seem in the least bit fazed by such an unrelenting epidemic of pre-natal natural deaths. The logical inference is that abortion opponents on some level don’t really believe that embryos are fully human persons, even though they may think that they do. > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > If we want to accuse people of hypocrisy, what about looking at the hypocrisy of the pro-choice side: How many people out there who pat themselves on the back for being “pro-choice” have **actually done something concrete to help a woman make a choice other than abortion**? You don’t seem to understand what “hypocrisy” means. Pro-choice advocates are not publicly advocating for a ethical system different from the one they privately subscribe to, so they’re not being hypocritical. Pro-choice hypocrisy would be, say, if someone advocated for abortion rights but secretly despised anyone who chose to have an abortion. > [@lavenderviolet](#): > > How many “pro-choice” people have **personally** welcomed a pregnant woman into their home, fed and clothed her, offered help with childcare, etc. to make sure that the woman could choose what she truly wanted to do instead of feeling forced to abort out of desperation? Like I said, you don’t understand what “hypocrisy” means. Would you also consider it “hypocritical” for, say, gun-rights advocates not to be personally housing and supporting people from dangerous neighborhoods, to make sure that those people can choose how they truly want to stay safe instead of feeling forced to own a handgun out of desperation? Of course you wouldn’t. Because somebody who advocates for a particular legal right is not being a hypocrite just because they don’t undertake to run a shelter or soup kitchen for people who prefer not to exercise that right. That said, of course, many pro-choice advocates **do** support and help fund many initiatives to help women avoid unwanted abortions: from sex education and birth control to aid programs for low-income families and single mothers. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/286 "2014-10-09T04:49:27Z")
And for anyone who actually does give a shit about women and their outcomes, [here’s a story about a study on women who were denied abortion](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/magazine/study-women-denied-abortions.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). > [@](#): > > The abortion rights community maintains that abortion is safe, both physically and psychologically — a position most scientists endorse. Those on the anti-abortion side argue that abortion is immoral, can cause a fetus pain and leads to long-lasting negative physical and psychological effects in the women who have the procedure. There is no credible research to support a “post-abortion syndrome,” as a report published by the American Psychological Association in 2008 made clear. > [@](#): > > When she looked at more objective measures of mental health over time — rates of depression and anxiety — she also found no correlation between having an abortion and increased symptoms. In a working paper based on her study, Foster notes that “women’s depression and anxiety symptoms either remained steady or decreased over the two-year period after receiving an abortion,” and that in fact, “initial and subsequent levels of depressive symptoms were similar” between those who received an abortion and those who were turned away. Turnaways did, however, suffer from higher levels of anxiety, but six months out, there were no appreciable differences between the two groups. > > Where the turnaways had more significant negative outcomes was in their physical health and economic stability. Because new mothers are eligible for government programs, Foster thought that they might have better health over time. But women in the turnaway group suffered more ill effects, including higher rates of hypertension and chronic pelvic pain (though Foster cannot say whether turnaways face greater risk from pregnancy than an average woman). Even “later abortions are significantly safer than childbirth,” she says, “and we see that through lower complications and low incidence of chronic conditions.” (In the National Right to Life’s five-part response to preliminary findings of Foster’s study, which were presented at the American Public Health Association conference last year, the group noted that the ill effects of abortion — future miscarriage, breast cancer, infertility — may become apparent only later. Reputable research does not support such claims.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/287 "2014-10-09T05:11:27Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > According to what you have posted on here, your mother has borderline personality disorder. Pretty much everyone with borderline personality disorder has a fucked up life. Do you really think that as a tiny baby you had the power to somehow fuck up her life more than whatever trauma/chaos caused her personality disorder in the first place? I don’t think she really developed a full blown personality disorder until I was like 6 or 7. And a lot of terrible things happened to her because of my existence. She doesn’t blame me for that stuff and she never did, I just think rationally there’s not another way to look at it. She was a poor, socially isolated, mentally unstable woman and a baby is not what she needed. She nearly gave me up for adoption, I had a placement and everything but she couldn’t go through with it. I have a friend who chose to give a child up for adoption - she actually asked me to adopt her child but my husband wasn’t ready for parenthood at that time. I see no indication that adopting the child out was less traumatic for her than an abortion would have been, had that been her choice. > [@](#): > > Is it possible that your history of depression is causing you to blame yourself for something that really isn’t your fault at all? Well I’m certainly not feeling wonderful about the fact that I exist right now, if that’s what you mean, but I don’t really mean it in the sense that I feel I did something wrong for existing. I think unwanted children are bad for society. I think there is pretty strong evidence that when women don’t have access to safe and free reproductive health care, including the option to terminate pregnancy, they live fewer years and in deeper poverty and higher crime. We know that banning abortion doesn’t stop it, it just increases mortality rates of women who abort. I see the right to control how and when you procreate to be pretty fundamentally tied up with a woman’s ability to be equal in society to men. In a perfect world every child we adopted out would go to a loving home, but really there are just thousands of unwanted kids in existence right now and adding to the vast numbers doesn’t seem to be a good idea. Ultimately my pro-choice stance is because I believe there is overwhelming evidence - just mounds and mounds of statistical evidence - that it is better for society for women to have that option than not to have it. > [@](#): > > My own view is that religion has nothing to do with the abortion debate and it is unfortunate that so much of the focus is on the religious aspect. For someone like me, that seems as ridiculous as it would if EVERY time someone mentioned the death penalty, it was treated as if the only people who are against the death penalty are Catholics. Abortion is one of those social issues for which I can pretty vividly see both sides of the debate, so I’m not trying to pick a fight with every person who is pro-life. **Hector** ’s views are obviously couched in misgoyny and pretty vile. I would not ascribe those views to everyone who is pro-life. Thank you for being compassionate with me despite my strong invective. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/288 "2014-10-09T05:56:29Z")
FWIW, **Spice Weasel** , I (and I’m confident quite a few other Dopers join me in this) feel pretty darn upbeat about the fact that you exist right now. I would have said “wonderful,” but I don’t want to come off as too creepy. Cheers! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/289 "2014-10-09T06:55:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > FWIW, **Spice Weasel** , I (and I’m confident quite a few other Dopers join me in this) feel pretty darn upbeat about the fact that you exist right now. > > I would have said “wonderful,” but I don’t want to come off as too creepy. Cheers! 🙂 The Pit is no place for this nonsense! But I really appreciate it and think you’re really nice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=14)