# Are you feeling enough shame and guilt, you bad women? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783 "2014-06-27T15:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/121 "2014-06-30T01:23:58Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Which wasn’t even close to the point I was making. Yes, there are people on both sides of the issue with which it is a complete waste of time to try and discuss it with. But it harms any attempt to discuss the issue when people like **enipla** and **Der Trihs** lead the way with their idiotic pronouncements about everyone who disagrees with them. If you are taking me to task for my behavior, spell it out. If you are taking me to task for someone else’s behavior, why are you doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/122 "2014-06-30T02:04:19Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If you are taking me to task for my behavior, spell it out. Here is what you said: “I know a lot of people who are pro-life for the same reason they embrace the rest of the Republican platform: a combination of the just world hypothesis and good luck.” Here is what I said in regards to that: “But do you also see the problem with not arguing about the issue and instead arguing about the people?” If I need to “spell it out even further” I can, I suppose. I think the comment you made that I quoted did nothing to further the discussion, and instead was only a slightly more veiled comment than the idiotic barbs that enipla and Dershits were throwing around. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/123 "2014-06-30T02:25:13Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Here is what you said: “I know a lot of people who are pro-life for the same reason they embrace the rest of the Republican platform: a combination of the just world hypothesis and good luck.” > > Here is what I said in regards to that: “But do you also see the problem with not arguing about the issue and instead arguing about the people?” > > If I need to “spell it out even further” I can, I suppose. I think the comment you made that I quoted did nothing to further the discussion, and instead was only a slightly more veiled comment than the idiotic barbs that enipla and Dershits were throwing around. I stated a disagreement with a poster about his characterization of the people. That is the issue I was addressing. If you would like to disagree with him, or with me, please feel free to do so. But telling me that in my disagreement with him I should not be talking about the same subject he was talking about is a bit weird. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/124 "2014-06-30T02:50:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The voice of honesty. I’m not going to pretend to respect them or that I believe that they are about saving “the unborn” when everything they do disproves it. They hate women, their motivation is to oppress, torment and kill women; their activities in the US and all over the world prove it. Yes, yes. We all know how highly you think of your own motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/125 "2014-06-30T03:21:02Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Right. They ignore science. Was this idea that a fetus is a person handed down to you, or have you done any investigation on your own? This isn’t about me. This is about your disingenuous argument routine of 1) ignoring arguments for fetal personhood that you _know_ exist, and 2) the composition fallacy of thinking that clinic protesters are in lockstep with the Republican party. [“About half of Republicans are non-Hispanic whites who are strongly religious.”](http://www.gallup.com/poll/118937/republican-base-heavily-white-conservative-religious.aspx) I guess you think only about half of protesters are religious, then? > [@enipla](#): > > I’m guessing that the vast majority of clinic protesters are republican. The others, non affiliated. Bet you’re not gonna find too many democrats. > > I also wouldn’t be to proud to point out that “People that care about child welfare make up a small percentage of the republican base”. Again, who cares? What does their party affiliation matter? I bet they think tacos are pretty swell, too. Are they therefore responsible for anything Taco Bell does? > [@Shakes](#): > > Now what were you saying again. I was saying that “Clinic protesters make up a very small percentage of the Republican voter base,” a statement which is unrebutted by your citation. I don’t know why you’d think that “pro lifers” and clinic protesters are equivalent terms, but perhaps it’s the same reason you can’t mentally separate Republicans from protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/126 "2014-06-30T03:27:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I was saying that “Clinic protesters make up a very small percentage of the Republican voter base,” a statement which is unrebutted by your citation. I don’t know why you’d think that “pro lifers” and clinic protesters are equivalent terms, but perhaps it’s the same reason you can’t mentally separate Republicans from protesters. Clinic protesters are voicing the general opinion of pro lifers. Are you trying to say otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/127 "2014-06-30T03:41:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I was saying that “Clinic protesters make up a very small percentage of the Republican voter base,” a statement which is unrebutted by your citation. I don’t know why you’d think that “pro lifers” and clinic protesters are equivalent terms, but perhaps it’s the same reason you can’t mentally separate Republicans from protesters. Why do _you_ chose to appear to think that when people talk about the pro-life crowd not caring one fig about the end result of their pro-lifing, they mean the protestors and the protestors only ? The pro-life block is much wider than that, and actively erodes abortion rights far and wide beyond simple twerps hanging outside clinics all day. You \*know \*this. Why try to play the craven, troll-y, ass-rapingly annoying semantic game ? And how much does **Bricker** charge for rhetoric lessons ? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/128 "2014-06-30T05:38:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The voice of honesty. I’m not going to pretend to respect them or that I believe that they are about saving “the unborn” when everything they do disproves it. They hate women, their motivation is to oppress, torment and kill women; their activities in the US and all over the world prove it. No one on our side of the fight would insist that you act dishonestly. But perhaps one day it will occur to you that when you characterize the people on the wrong side in ters that are more appropriate to descriptions of not-a-single-redeeming-quality monsters in really bad cartoons, you make them appear chimerical, and therefore easily dismissed as a political force to be reckoned with. This ultimately provides our side no benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/129 "2014-06-30T08:40:34Z")
I hate speaking up for a side I personally disagree with. That being said, I feel I ought to contribute this. My high school buddy’s wife was conceived out of wedlock around 1960. So, she sees a pro-choice view as someone saying she should have been aborted. So she’s pro-life / anti-abortion, and their children were raised to believe that. About 6 years ago, their then 19 year old unmarried daughter, W, got pregnant. Abortion was never an option for her. She decided on an open adoption. So the real parents of Josh and W stay in contact via email and visits are made. And every year there’s a pile of packages under my friend’s Exmas tree from his bio-mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle for Josh. I guess I’m saying this to offer a case where some anti-abortion people are not misogynistic female enslavers. Personally, I think abortion is the worst method of birth control. But since I don’t have a uterus, I also think I’ll never know what it’s like to go through an unwanted pregnancy and that I have no business telling or legislating what a woman can and cannot do with her uterus. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/130 "2014-06-30T11:03:14Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > My high school buddy’s wife was conceived out of wedlock around 1960. So, she sees a pro-choice view as someone saying she should have been aborted. I think your buddy’s wife has a rather weird hang up. Conflating her being born out of wedlock to other people’s desire to get an abortion as a slight on her is just nonsense. I agree with you on the misogyny bit though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/131 "2014-06-30T11:17:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Right, not that they’ve thought for themselves and said “A fetus is a living human being and deserves to be spoken for.” Not that, of course. Of course not. They care nothing for the fetus; they oppose prenatal care, and they’ll get an abortion themselves or force one on a woman if they find it convenient. They are motivated by hatred towards women, not by any concern for the fetus; it’s just a club to beat women with to them. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > No one on our side of the fight would insist that you act dishonestly. Nonsense, it’s been made clear by various people that they’d prefer that I lie. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But perhaps one day it will occur to you that when you characterize the people on the wrong side in ters that are more appropriate to descriptions of not-a-single-redeeming-quality monsters in really bad cartoons, you make them appear chimerical, and therefore easily dismissed as a political force to be reckoned with. > > This ultimately provides our side no benefit. Pretending that they are better people than they are or that they are motivated by something other than their real motives is foolish. And they are monsters; torturers, rapists, murderers and tyrants. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/132 "2014-06-30T11:27:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And they are monsters; torturers, rapists, murderers and tyrants. I used to think this way (though to a lesser degree), but then some rock-solid conservative individuals (as well as liberal individuals) risked their lives to save mine. It’s hard to think of people as evil or monsters when they’ll lay down their lives to save yours. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/133 "2014-06-30T13:20:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course not. They care nothing for the fetus; they oppose prenatal care, and they’ll get an abortion themselves or force one on a woman if they find it convenient. They are motivated by hatred towards women, not by any concern for the fetus; it’s just a club to beat women with to them. > > Nonsense, it’s been made clear by various people that they’d prefer that I lie. > > Pretending that they are better people than they are or that they are motivated by something other than their real motives is foolish. And they are monsters; torturers, rapists, murderers and tyrants. _sigh_ Serious question, **Der Trihs** , where do you stand on the literal existence of unicorns, pegasi, hippogriffs, Frankenstein’s Monster, vampiric Count Dracula, the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Rodan, Mothra, and The Creeper from Scooby Doo? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/134 "2014-06-30T13:24:31Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Again, who cares? What does their party affiliation matter? I bet they think tacos are pretty swell, too. Are they therefore responsible for anything Taco Bell does? YOU brought it up in the first place, apparently YOU care. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/135 "2014-06-30T14:26:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I used to think this way (though to a lesser degree), but then some rock-solid conservative individuals (as well as liberal individuals) risked their lives to save mine. It’s hard to think of people as evil or monsters when they’ll lay down their lives to save yours. Not for **Der** it isn’t. All he has to do is imagine some tainted motive that they might have had for appearing to act in your interest, and then he can get right on with the evil-monstering as usual. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/136 "2014-06-30T14:39:23Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > My high school buddy’s wife was conceived out of wedlock around 1960. So, she sees a pro-choice view as someone saying she should have been aborted. If she had been aborted, she wouldn’t know and wouldn’t care. Plus, don’t religious types think that would guarantee an instant trip to heaven? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/137 "2014-06-30T14:46:59Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > YOU brought it up in the first place, apparently YOU care. I wouldn’t hold my breath for that being given an honest answer. He still never addressed the fact that his premise (“I pitted the poor, _conservative_ [his observation that he won’t own, not ours] slob for his views on abortion!”) versus the facts that have now been repeatedly pointed out to him. People that strawman an argument with lies, obfuscation and bullshit aren’t worth anyone’s time. The only thing he deserves (beyond shunning for being a duplicitous moron, I suppose) is to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/138 "2014-06-30T14:49:50Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > where do you stand on the literal existence of unicorns, pegasi, hippogriffs, Frankenstein’s Monster, vampiric Count Dracula, the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Rodan, Mothra, and The Creeper from Scooby Doo? If there’s a steady paycheck in it, I’ll believe anything you say. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/139 "2014-06-30T15:06:13Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > My high school buddy’s wife was conceived out of wedlock around 1960. So, she sees a pro-choice view as someone saying she should have been aborted. My brother has a daughter born out of wedlock as a ploy to force marriage. I offered my bro the cash for an abortion, his gf wouldn’t go along. The daughter is now 24, and a friend of mine. Three years ago, when I first met her we were talking and I confessed to feeling bad about my role in her near-abortion. I thought she’d be pissed. Instead, she hugged me and told me she was pro-choice and she appreciated how I attempted to help her dad. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783/140 "2014-06-30T15:06:42Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > Plus, don’t religious types think that would guarantee an instant trip to heaven? Nope. Gotta get baptised to get that sweet, sweet Salvation. Else it’s Original Sin Hell for you. (fun, pointless factoid : in France, and prior to the legalization of abortions, the traditional “crone with a twig” to [del]steal[/del] quote an expression from _Rob Roy_ were derisively known as “angel makers”) Or if you’re some sub-denomination of “colonial heathen” you gotta _sigh, droning tone_ publicly declare that you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour. Then, apparently, mention Jesus every other sentence for the rest of your godforsaken fucking life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-feeling-enough-shame-and-guilt-you-bad-women/691783.md?page=8)