# Are you for the death penalty or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686 "2009-08-17T02:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/261 "2009-08-23T01:46:43Z")
Btw, when I logged on to this thread, the ad was “Stop the Execution of Troy Davis” by Amnesty International. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/262 "2009-08-23T01:49:25Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > Just recently saw the documentary “A Thin Blue Line” again, with my son. Just one story of an innocent man on death row (but one who happened to be spared largely as a result of the film made about his case). You might be interested in [Murder on a Sunday Morning](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0307197/). One of my all-time favorite documentaries. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/263 "2009-08-23T01:49:50Z")
I have no moral qualms whatsoever about the death penalty per se and would be okay with pulling the switch on many of them myself. As a practical matter, however, there do seem to be so many people who are later discovered to be innocent that I would reserve it for the John Wayne Gacy and Charles Manson-type cases. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/264 "2009-08-23T01:55:00Z")
Btw, what’s the justification for sparing the lives of [Roy Norris and Larry Bittaker](http://crime.about.com/od/serial/p/bittaker_norris.htm), who were absolutely, undeniably guilty of torturing several people to death and tape-recording the killings to play back for their own amusement? Ditto for [Danny Harold Rolling](http://crime.about.com/b/2006/10/25/gainesville-serial-killer-awaits-execution.htm), who made audio tapes before his killings describing what he was about to do? Obviously, these guys were guilty and have no chance of rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/265 "2009-08-23T01:56:45Z")
Against. While there are strong theoretical arguments for as well as against, the craptastical actual administration of the justice system in a huge number of cases makes it too likely for an innocent person to be executed (and the actual criminal escape justice) as a real-life practical issue. Murder and other serious crimes are usually committed by people who are not even considering the penalty - they are either crimes of passion/impulse or the criminal expects not to be caught, so the death penalty does little to deter crime. (The number one crime deterrent is increased police enforcement or anything else which increases the actual or perceived chance of being caught.) Ineffective administration of the prison system is not a valid argument against the death penalty. If convicted murderers doing life are having such a good time in prison or are getting out to kill again, the remedy is to fix the prison/parole system, not to kill them. I \*\*am \*\*in favour of some sort of modern equivalent of life at hard labour, to make the prison sentence even more of a punishment when the special circumstances of a particular crime deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/266 "2009-08-23T01:56:50Z")
> [@TheFatKid](#): > > Btw, what’s the justification for sparing the lives of [Roy Norris and Larry Bittaker](http://crime.about.com/od/serial/p/bittaker_norris.htm), who were absolutely, undeniably guilty of torturing several people to death and tape-recording the killings to play back for their own amusement? You don’t need to “justify” sparing someone’s life; that’s the default. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/267 "2009-08-23T02:59:26Z")
> [@TheFatKid](#): > > Btw, what’s the justification for sparing the lives of [Roy Norris and Larry Bittaker](http://crime.about.com/od/serial/p/bittaker_norris.htm), who were absolutely, undeniably guilty of torturing several people to death and tape-recording the killings to play back for their own amusement? > > Ditto for [Danny Harold Rolling](http://crime.about.com/b/2006/10/25/gainesville-serial-killer-awaits-execution.htm), who made audio tapes before his killings describing what he was about to do? > > Obviously, these guys were guilty and have no chance of rehabilitation. They are sick. They have mental deficiencies. Do you favor killing sick people? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/268 "2009-08-23T03:32:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They are sick. They have mental deficiencies. Do you favor killing sick people? Where does the sickness end and the person begin? Why is someone who kills because they enjoy killing more worthy of sympathy than someone who kills to loot the corpses? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/269 "2009-08-23T03:43:58Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Where does the sickness end and the person begin? Why is someone who kills because they enjoy killing more worthy of sympathy than someone who kills to loot the corpses? They aren’t necessarily worthy of empathy. They just aren’t worth relinquishing our humanity over. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/270 "2009-08-23T18:32:00Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > They aren’t necessarily worthy of empathy. They just aren’t worth relinquishing our humanity over. I think they are worthy of our empathy. After all, they, just like us, are a product of their nature and their environment. Both things they have no control over. They deserve our absolute greatest empathy, and we as sane people must do our best to stop more monsters like them being created. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/271 "2009-08-23T18:37:26Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > They aren’t necessarily worthy of empathy. They just aren’t worth relinquishing our humanity over. I think empathy is what separates the majority of people from the really monstrous murderers and rapists. Most of us don’t want to cause pain because we can put ourselves in the shoes of the victim. We don’t torture animals because we empathize. Empathy IS humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/272 "2009-08-23T19:30:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Any chance of you pointing to a country where they have got it right? I’m not as familiar with other countries justice systems, so I can’t say that I can. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/273 "2009-08-23T19:33:25Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > For those who say that executing the innocent will be inevitable: would YOU be willling to be that innocent person? I have said on these boards before that I would accept it if it came down to that. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/274 "2009-08-23T19:58:12Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I have said on these boards before that I would accept it if it came down to that. You’d accept it because you’d have to. All those innocent people who have been killed have accepted it as well–that’s the point, they have no choice in the matter once they’re strapped down. But I don’t believe for a moment that you wouldn’t fight tooth and nail to get out of there. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/275 "2009-08-23T22:59:03Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > You’d accept it because you’d have to. All those innocent people who have been killed have accepted it as well–that’s the point, they have no choice in the matter once they’re strapped down. But I don’t believe for a moment that you wouldn’t fight tooth and nail to get out of there. I didn’t say I wouldn’t. There has never been and likely never will be a completely perfect system of justice (or any system for that matter). I obviously wouldn’t be pleased to be caught by one of the imperfections but I don’t see that as invalidating the entire system. This is of course largely hypothetical as the US justice system currently has too many imperfections in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/276 "2009-08-23T23:11:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You don’t need to “justify” sparing someone’s life; that’s the default. I don’t see why. Especially when “someone” is Larry Bittaker. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/277 "2009-08-23T23:12:51Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They are sick. They have mental deficiencies. Do you favor killing sick people? I reckon I do. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/278 "2009-08-23T23:13:51Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > They aren’t necessarily worthy of empathy. They just aren’t worth relinquishing our humanity over. You have a higher opinion of humanity than I do. Bonobos we ain’t. Why pretend that we are? ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/279 "2009-08-23T23:15:18Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > I think they are worthy of our empathy. After all, they, just like us, are a product of their nature and their environment. Both things they have no control over. They deserve our absolute greatest empathy, and we as sane people must do our best to stop more monsters like them being created. Some lionesses are cub killers. No one knows why. Other lionesses will shun a cub killer, and will attack her if she gets too close. That must be hell for the cub killer. But I gotta say, it makes perfect sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![TheFatKid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TheFatKid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFatKid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/280 "2009-08-23T23:16:26Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I have said on these boards before that I would accept it if it came down to that. Damn right you would. You’d have no choice. Me, I would be totally out of my mind with anger and fear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=15)