# Are you for the death penalty or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686 "2009-08-17T02:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/121 "2009-08-18T07:44:54Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I am totally for it. AS for the “government can’t kill to prove killing is wrong”…I don’t get the argument. Gov’t is killing GUILTY people…the guilty people killed INNOCENT people…it’s apples and oranges. Nonsense; guilt has little to do with it. It’s race and gender and skin color that matter much more than guilt. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > I think we should retroactivel kill 50-100K people, gang bangers, multiple killers, remorseless wastes of time. We’d obviously have to do away with the huge appeals process and yes, occassionally an innocent person will be fried. > > 30K spend on keeping a murderer alive is 30K not devoted to “child care” or some other such liberal bugaboo…think of it that way. You’re taking food out of the mouths of children! Don’t you care about the children? More than you do; they will be some of the ones who die in your massacre campaign. Many will be hurt or die either as direct victims of your slaughter, or in the resulting riots and guerrilla war. They’ll die when they pick up a gun and try to fight back when they see most or all of their family being led away to be killed. They be killed in the gun battles when the soldiers are sent in - because doing what you say will take soldiers not cops. They’ll die when neighborhoods riot when hundreds are taken away to be killed, all dark skinned and poor naturally. They’ll die in the terrorist/guerrilla campaigns that such a policy would create. They will grow up and some will be the ones who fight back against what will most certainly be seen as a campaign of persecution and likely as one of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/122 "2009-08-18T07:47:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense; guilt has little to do with it. It’s race and gender and skin color that matter much more than guilt. > > More than you do; they will be some of the ones who die in your massacre campaign. Many will be hurt or die either as direct victims of your slaughter, or in the resulting riots and guerrilla war. They’ll die when they pick up a gun and try to fight back when they see most or all of their family being led away to be killed. They be killed in the gun battles when the soldiers are sent in - because doing what you say will take soldiers not cops. They’ll die when neighborhoods riot when hundreds are taken away to be killed, all dark skinned and poor naturally. They’ll die in the terrorist/guerrilla campaigns that such a policy would create. They will grow up and some will be the ones who fight back against what will most certainly be seen as a campaign of persecution and likely as one of genocide. Yes, the gov’t doesn’t care about “guilt/innocence”, that’s just a ruse! It’s all a plot to kill people of color. OK. Killing 100K people who are ALREADY in jail for crimes like murder, drug distribution, child rape/murder, armed robbery is not the same as pulling people off the street (because they are ‘of color’) and killing them. I think that’s lost on you. I think the ‘people of color’ would be the biggest beneficaries…they would be able to live in inner cities without fear of being raped/mugged/victimized. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/123 "2009-08-18T07:54:24Z")
Like when it came to to actually those budget dollars it would actually go to help feeding poor kids. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/124 "2009-08-18T08:00:17Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Yes, the gov’t doesn’t care about “guilt/innocence”, that’s just a ruse! It’s all a plot to kill people of color. OK. And poor people, and so on. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > Killing 100K people who are ALREADY in jail for crimes like murder, drug distribution, child rape/murder, armed robbery is not the same as pulling people off the street (because they are ‘of color’) and killing them. I think that’s lost on you. No, I just recognize just how unjust our “justice” system is. And that what would inevitably happen is that it would be 100k poor brown people who were killed, while wealthier, whiter people who were convicted of the same or worse crimes live. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > I think the ‘people of color’ would be the biggest beneficaries…they would be able to live in inner cities without fear of being raped/mugged/victimized. Nonsense; the death penalty doesn’t lower crimes. They’d just add the fear of being taken out and executed to the dangers they already face. They’d know quite well it had little do to with killing criminals and everything to do with killing them. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/125 "2009-08-18T08:24:41Z")
I’m against it. But then, I’m against killing in self defence, too, so I’m an extreme outlier. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/126 "2009-08-18T09:06:27Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > We’d obviously have to do away with the huge appeals process and yes, occassionally an innocent person will be fried. > [@bri1600bv](#): > > I think the ‘people of color’ would be the biggest beneficaries…they would be able to live in inner cities without fear of being raped/mugged/victimized. I feel safer already! But why stop there? If it’s okay to fry innocent people **occasionally** , then imagine how much safer we’d all be if we upped it to frying innocent people **frequently**. And having a system where the government imposes the death penalty whenever the mood strikes it would definitely inspire a content, peaceful populace. I’m REALLY hoping that the people making these suggestions just haven’t given it any thought. At all. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/127 "2009-08-18T09:14:42Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > \ > > Sorry, folks, I’ve been out on a job and just got back. > > Yes, this is _Great Debates_ material. > > Belatedly moved. > > IMHO \> GD > > \ With all due respect to our esteemed moderator, no, it is not. Capital punishment is wrong, always and everywhere. This fact is not subject to debate. ---
**Author:** ![BGDN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@BGDN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BGDN)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/128 "2009-08-18T09:54:04Z")
I am for the death penalty in a couple of cases : when someone rapes a child and when someone kills with intention. I dont see the problem with expenses, maybe it is a specific thing in the US only. Put a bullet through the guy’s head. And if there is a moral problem, for who to choose to shoot the guy, because maybe it is not fair to the soldiers or police that they be ordered to kill someone, I think family members or friends of the victim will do it for free. Of course the occasional innocent guy will get the death penalty, but that’s life, you win some, you lose some. No system is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/129 "2009-08-18T10:06:44Z")
I am for it, at least in theory. There _are_ criminals whose guilt has been proven far beyond a half-assed excuse for “beyond a reasonable doubt”, and the death penalty should be limited to those cases. Frankly, if an appeals process catches _any_ false positives on death row, the judges passing sentences aren’t doing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/130 "2009-08-18T10:11:20Z")
> [@BGDN](#): > > I am for the death penalty in a couple of cases : when someone rapes a child and when someone kills with intention. > > I dont see the problem with expenses, maybe it is a specific thing in the US only. Put a bullet through the guy’s head. And if there is a moral problem, for who to choose to shoot the guy, because maybe it is not fair to the soldiers or police that they be ordered to kill someone, I think family members or friends of the victim will do it for free. > > Of course the occasional innocent guy will get the death penalty, but that’s life, you win some, you lose some. No system is perfect. It’s responses like this that make me certain that I am right to oppose the death penalty. I don’t want people who don’t care about innocence or guilt, people who apparently just want to kill for the sake of killing to have the legal right to kill people. What, exactly makes someone with your attitude different than the supposedly so very awful people you want to execute? If we go around executing innocent people, why are we even bothering to condemn murderers for what they do? ---
**Author:** ![BGDN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@BGDN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BGDN)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/131 "2009-08-18T12:07:55Z")
Maybe I am different because I think that there are sacrifices to be made in order to achieve a greater good. If one man from 1000 is innocent, but the 1000 death penalties given make the future criminals afraid to do the deed, it is a good thing. You know, the vast majority of convicted people are really guilty, in most countries the police doesn’t just pick a guy from the street and tell the world that he did it, just so they solve another case. The situation is like that only in a few countries, with totalitarian regimes, no rights for the people, no freedom, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/132 "2009-08-18T12:51:55Z")
> [@Sometimes\_Sober\_Sometimes\_Not](#): > > Also, I’m guessing alot of the people here are “pro-choice”. (I happen to be, depending on the terms of the pregnancy.) > > Wouldn’t that be a “double standard” in a way if you’re against the death penalty, but you are pro-choice. I’m anti-DP and pro-choice. I believe fetuses are not people until they are viable, at which point I’m pro-life. I don’t see this as a double standard. [QUOTE=Sometimes Sober Sometimes Not] As far as first-trimester fetuses. Even though it will probably not live because of lack of body functions. It needs an umbilical cord to breath. That tells me that it can probably be put on a ventilator. Even if it lives for five minutes on Earth on it. [/quote] A first trimester fetus does not have functional lungs. Even a respirator can’t compensate for the fact that they have not developed enough to function. [This link](http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5220795_lung-development-fetus.html) describes the three stages of lung development that are needed to allow the lungs to function - stage two doesn’t begin until week 16, which is in the second trimester. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/133 "2009-08-18T12:56:40Z")
[QUOTE=Not Really All That Bright] That couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the fact that nobody investigates the convictions of people who have already been executed, could it? Nah. [/quote] I am afraid you are mistaken. Death penalty opponents would dearly love to find an instance of someone who was executed who could later be shown innocent with some hard evidence like DNA. No such example has been found. One example is Roger Coleman, who was convicted of murder. The DP opponents then submitted his DNA for an earlier, less accurate form of testing. It should him to be guilty, or at least to be one of the .2% of the population that matched the DNA sample from the murder scene. (This is in addition to all the other evidence against him.) He was subsequently executed. Then DP opponents wanted his DNA tested again, with a more sophisticated form of testing, hoping it would clear him and he could be used as a poster child against the DP. Guess what the results were? [Cite](http://www.hks.harvard.edu/dnabook/VA-STATE%20WON%27T%20TEST%20EXECUTED.1st). If, as has been asserted, innocent people have been executed, there must be some process by which innocence can be established after execution. Or put it this way - if DNA evidence definitely establishes guilt, do you then support the death penalty for those killers? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/134 "2009-08-18T14:00:07Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > I feel safer already! > But why stop there? If it’s okay to fry innocent people **occasionally** , then imagine how much safer we’d all be if we upped it to frying innocent people **frequently**. > > And having a system where the government imposes the death penalty whenever the mood strikes it would definitely inspire a content, peaceful populace. > > I’m REALLY hoping that the people making these suggestions just haven’t given it any thought. At all. Ever. I’m REALLY hoping that people making posts like you would stop and think. Just think some. Just a little bit. I didn’t say killing innocent people was good, just that it was unavoidable. Having innocent people rot in jail is unavoidable too…should we abolish all jails and let everyone go because there are UNDOUBTEDLY some innocent people rotting within? That is your logic carried further. There is no part of my logic that said it would be a good idea to kill innocent people at all. Try to think a little before you post. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/135 "2009-08-18T14:02:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > With all due respect to our esteemed moderator, no, it is not. > > Capital punishment is wrong, always and everywhere. This fact is not subject to debate. The preening supposed moral superiority of the liberal shows itself again. Reminds me of the liberal judge who let the child rapist out on bail…said rapist killed two adults and raped their two kids…while out on bail. No doubt the liberal judge patted himself on the back for having bail so low…unlike the rubes who would have kept this poor downtrodden victim in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/136 "2009-08-18T14:03:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or put it this way - if DNA evidence definitely establishes guilt, do you then support the death penalty for those killers? No, but as noted above I’m opposed to the death penalty on practical grounds, not philosophical ones. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/137 "2009-08-18T14:06:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And poor people, and so on. > > No, I just recognize just how unjust our “justice” system is. And that what would inevitably happen is that it would be 100k poor brown people who were killed, while wealthier, whiter people who were convicted of the same or worse crimes live. > > Nonsense; the death penalty doesn’t lower crimes. They’d just add the fear of being taken out and executed to the dangers they already face. They’d know quite well it had little do to with killing criminals and everything to do with killing them. The death penalty lowers crime quite a bit. If you killed all the victmizers instead of unleashing them upon the populace there would be lower crime. We’ll never know as the death penalty is applied so sparingly. So all people of color are criminals? How would someone who doesn’t commit crimes be put to death for murder or armed robbery if they didn’t do it? If the system is that biased, I guess we should close down all the jails now as almost everyone in there is just an innocent victim of a horribly racist society. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/138 "2009-08-18T14:10:02Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > The death penalty lowers crime quite a bit. . Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/139 "2009-08-18T14:22:52Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > So all people of color are criminals? How would someone who doesn’t commit crimes be put to death for murder or armed robbery if they didn’t do it? > > If the system is that biased, I guess we should close down all the jails now as almost everyone in there is just an innocent victim of a horribly racist society. The point is not whether or not they did it. The point is that a black defendant is statistically far more likely to be executed for a given crime than a white person. If we cannot apply the death penalty fairly, we should not use it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/140 "2009-08-18T14:32:33Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > If the system is that biased, I guess we should close down all the jails now as almost everyone in there is just an innocent victim of a horribly racist society. Tell me, are you familiar with the term ‘false choice’ ? There are more options than those two. Or are you suggesting that any option that does not involve the death penalty is commensurate with ‘just allowing rapists and murderers to run free’ ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=8)