# Are you for the death penalty or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686 "2009-08-17T02:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/141 "2009-08-18T15:20:11Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > The preening supposed moral superiority of the liberal shows itself again. You know the defininition of a liberal? A conservative who’s been arrested! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/142 "2009-08-18T15:33:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …If we cannot apply the death penalty fairly, we should not use it at all. By that logic, we should not have income taxes, either, unless we can demonstrate that they are applied completely fairly…TRM ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/143 "2009-08-18T15:46:41Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > By that logic, we should not have income taxes, either, unless we can demonstrate that they are applied completely fairly…TRM You are absolutely correct. I fully oppose the imposition of progressive income taxes as a penalty for the commission of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/144 "2009-08-18T16:04:07Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I oppose it in all instances. Its imperfections are legion: the death penalty is expensive, effort-intensive, prone to put innocent people to death, discriminatorily-administered, and quite without any real moral justification for its use (usually people repair to vaguely mystical pronouncements such as “if there is no ‘top pillar of justice’ (?!) then there is no justice at all” or similar horseshit). In a perfect world it would be none of these things (well, the moral justification thing is subjective), and I’d be pro-death penalty. I don’t have a philosophical objection to capital punishment for horrendous crimes. If I can wish that into existence, I could just wish the crimes away. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/145 "2009-08-18T16:17:41Z")
Against. 1. It’s wrong to kill. 2. I don’t trust the government to kill people. 3. It doesn’t achieve what it sets out to achieve - except the entertainment value and that’s not a good enough reason. ---
**Author:** ![BGDN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@BGDN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BGDN)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/146 "2009-08-18T16:17:54Z")
After a google search I found out that the average cost of a death penalty case in Maryland is 3 million $. I am not from the US, but I can’t possibly understand what sort of stuff raises the cost to 3 million. The judge has the same salary regardless of the case he is judging right ? The prosecutor the same. Defense lawyer costs are not the state’s problem. Maybe if they are public lawyers, but it is their job anyway, and they are getting paid. Jail costs, with food and everything is the same as if the guy was convicted to a prison sentence. So what’s the 3 million for ? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/147 "2009-08-18T16:20:39Z")
Explained [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11455286&postcount=87). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/148 "2009-08-18T16:25:25Z")
> [@BGDN](#): > > I am not from the US, but I can’t possibly understand what sort of stuff raises the cost to 3 million. > The judge has the same salary regardless of the case he is judging right ? The prosecutor the same. Defense lawyer costs are not the state’s problem. Jail costs, with food and everything is the same as if the guy was convicted to a prison sentence. > So what’s the 3 million for ? 1. Nobody pleads guilty to a capital charge. 2. Nobody waives their right to trial by jury for a capital charge. 3. Some states have a dual track trial for death cases - one trial to establish guilt/innocence, and another to establish whether the crime warrants death. 4. If a death penalty conviction/sentence is reversed on appeal, most states and situations allow for the defendant to get a whole _new_ trial (assuming he wasn’t found innocent). 5. Death row inmates are, as the name suggests, kept in separate housing from prison general populations. I have no idea why this is so, but I would guess it’s because they require higher security conditions (after all, what have they got to lose in an escape attempt?) ETA: Damn you, **Syntropy**! ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/149 "2009-08-18T16:28:24Z")
> [@BGDN](#): > > After a google search I found out that the average cost of a death penalty case in Maryland is 3 million $. > I am not from the US, but I can’t possibly understand what sort of stuff raises the cost to 3 million. > The judge has the same salary regardless of the case he is judging right ? The prosecutor the same. Defense lawyer costs are not the state’s problem. Yes they are, as are the costs of the defense’s investigators and expert witnesses. Virtually no capital murder defendant can afford the cost of defending a capital murder case. ---
**Author:** ![BGDN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@BGDN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BGDN)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/150 "2009-08-18T16:28:37Z")
Thanks Syntropy. i tried to edit my last post but wasn’t allowed, so here another thing : what’s the deal with keeping people on death row for so many years ? Why don’t they execute them as soon as their case reached the final court of appeal. They should make a law, that no trial, from beginning to the highest court can’t be longer then 3 years, or a reasonable time like this. Don’t keep them for 10 years on death row, spend money on them, feed them, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/151 "2009-08-18T16:37:02Z")
> [@BGDN](#): > > They should make a law, that no trial, from beginning to the highest court can’t be longer then 3 years, or a reasonable time like this. We’d need twice as many judges, bailiffs, public defenders and so on to keep up. Guess how much _that_ would cost? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/152 "2009-08-18T16:38:24Z")
> [@BGDN](#): > > Thanks Syntropy. > > i tried to edit my last post but wasn’t allowed, so here another thing : what’s the deal with keeping people on death row for so many years ? Why don’t they execute them as soon as their case reached the final court of appeal. They should make a law, that no trial, from beginning to the highest court can’t be longer then 3 years, or a reasonable time like this. > Don’t keep them for 10 years on death row, spend money on them, feed them, etc. That’s a good point. The system as we have now doesn’t work…too expensive, doesn’t reasonably deter crime (as it lacks certainty), too drawn out. I think in cases where there is incontrovertible evidence, justice should be swift and severe. If someone is found guilty by preponderance of evidence but there is no smoking gun so to speak, then I would think that is a case where you would want to err on the side of life imprisonment. As to deterrence, if the death penalty were applied ruthlessly, I have no doubt it would deter. In some southeast Asian countries, heroin smuggling gets the death penalty. They don’t have much of a heroin problem over there for some reason. If you know you’re going to get whacked, you’re not going to do it. Crimes of passion are a little bit different, I will admit. But armed robbery, car jacking, premeditated murder, etc…all would be detered I believe. Thomas Sowell used to write about how he couldn’t understand how the a neighborhood lady would carry some of the Mafia’s money in a paper sack down the street…everyone knew there were thousands of dollars in there but she never got robbed. Why? Deterrence. They’d get whacked and they knew it. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/153 "2009-08-18T16:40:39Z")
I have a somewhat related idea in regards to incarceration. Instead of having expensive prisons, they should put people in work camps…put ankle bracelets on them with GPS so that if they do escape you can get them back. A work camp has got to be better for prisoners than being in a small cell… Anyway these work camps could dig ditches, pick lettuce, etc… IF the prisoners got out of line, etc…they’d be threatened with a return to the big house. I would think this would be cheaper (no huge concrete facilities) and the gov’t could actually get some work out of them. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/154 "2009-08-18T16:44:38Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > If you are against it, you are just lucky enough not to have met the wrong people yet. Because the only alternatives are to execute them or let them go free? ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/155 "2009-08-18T16:47:04Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > As to deterrence, if the death penalty were applied ruthlessly, I have no doubt it would deter. In some southeast Asian countries, heroin smuggling gets the death penalty. They don’t have much of a heroin problem over there for some reason. I’m guessing that you have never been to a south east asian country. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/156 "2009-08-18T16:48:33Z")
Here is a GD thread discussing the cost arguments: > **[The death penalty is too expensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508170)** > > I know that an argument that tries to quantify the cost in humanity and compassion when the government deliberately ends the life of a human being won’t go anywhere, because not everyone shares the view that this cost exists, or if it exists that... ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/157 "2009-08-18T16:51:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Generally, not. There are too many instances of executing the wrong individual for it to be justified. “Better to let ten guilty men go free” and all that. THAT is what frightens me the most about it. The idea of executing an innocent man is far, far too high a price to pay. > > snip) Really? You wouldn’t have a cite as to how many people have been wrongfully terminated would you? As to the cost, the only reason the costs exceed life imprisonment are all the legal fees associated with the bazillion appeals they get. btw, I think child molestation should be one of the few punishable by death penalties. As an aside, what makes killing a cop more of a “death sentence” than say killing the neighbor? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/158 "2009-08-18T16:52:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > ETA: Damn you, **Syntropy**! 😛 You explained it far better than I did. I was merely glib. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/159 "2009-08-18T17:20:45Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I have a somewhat related idea in regards to incarceration. Instead of having expensive prisons, they should put people in work camps…put ankle bracelets on them with GPS so that if they do escape you can get them back. > > A work camp has got to be better for prisoners than being in a small cell… > > Anyway these work camps could dig ditches, pick lettuce, etc… > > IF the prisoners got out of line, etc…they’d be threatened with a return to the big house. > > I would think this would be cheaper (no huge concrete facilities) and the gov’t could actually get some work out of them. There used to be one of those in Louisiana. Sunup to sunset you worked. You slept in tents. The rehabilitation rate was 99% Know what? It’s something people would find “cruel and unusual” ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686/160 "2009-08-18T18:02:28Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > There used to be one of those in Louisiana. Sunup to sunset you worked. You slept in tents. > > The rehabilitation rate was 99% > > Know what? It’s something people would find “cruel and unusual” Why don’t they use those out in CA to pick the crops and so forth. Have them work on farms where they’d actually get a skill, feel like they were doing something productive. Of course the prison guard union wouldn’t like it. Nor the illegals who would lose their jobs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-for-the-death-penalty-or-not/506686.md?page=9)