Are you for the death penalty or not?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

ETA: beaten to the punch shakes fist at StR

:: shrugging ::

The best solution is a simple one, of course: put me in charge. Government would still be evil and society would be run for the benefit of a single man, but at least I’d be HONEST about it.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not

Wouldn’t that be a “double standard” in a way if you’re against the death penalty, but you are pro-choice.

Depends on why you have the opinion that you do. But that is a thought-provoking statement.

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

The contradiction is being in favor of the death-penalty but against abortion rights.

This stance is the opposite of mine, but I don’t understand your reasoning. I think that those who are pro CP and against abortion are basing their ideas on a sense of moral order and justice. A killer needs punishment, but a fetusperson has wronged nobody and so does not deserve punishment.

[Eugene_of_Sandwich]

I understand it as a deterrent but I believe it’s morally questionable. I say bring back “hard labor.” Bustin’ rocks, that kind thing.

[Larry_Borgia]

Not. I don’t trust the government with that power.

[appleciders]

For, but only in cases where something like “life without parole” is unavailable, unworkable, or unsuccessful. A prisoner who kills a guard or another prisoner, for example, or a Mafia don who’s orchestrating killings from inside prison. I don’t believe that capital punishment should ever be used as a top punishment for particularly violent or otherwise heinous crimes because I believe that if it’s wrong for me to kill my neighbor for revenge, it’s wrong for the government to do it for the same reason.

I also basically don’t trust the government to use the DP morally; it seems to me that too many innocents are executed wrongly.

[FriarTed]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Hardly. Pro-choice people do not consider a fetus to be a person, and therefore it is not deserving of legal protection. The contradiction is being in favor of the death-penalty but against abortion rights.

Bull-freakin’-poo! G

I am totally for the death penalty of people proven guilty of capital crimes (I do believe that some people can be proven definitely guilty- I am for reserving the death penalty for those cases). They have chosen to forfeit their lives.

I am totally against the avoidable taking of lives of innocent people. I consider fetuses (feti?) to be “innocent people*” deserving of legal protection. *(I will dally with that definition in cases of rape, incest, major threat to the mother’s physical health. I am pro-choice in those cases.)

In the same way, as far as I’m concerned, if one makes the choice to murder, rape, torture, kidnap, molest innocent people, especially children, then one has made the choice to have oneself aborted. Buh bye.

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

There is no such thing as 100% proof. DNA evidence can be faked or contaminated. Especially in cases involving prosecutorial or police misconduct, all bets are off.

I’m sure the millions of illegitimate fathers out there would like to use that defence to not to pay child support.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@FriarTed

I am totally against the avoidable taking of lives of innocent people. I consider fetuses (feti?) to be “innocent people*” deserving of legal protection. *(I will dally with that definition in cases of rape, incest, major threat to the mother’s physical health. I am pro-choice in those cases.)

Without wanting to hijack this too much, either they’re innocent people or they’re not, and either they’re deserving of protection or they’re not. Why is killing a “person” who results from incest or rape any different than killing one who doesn’t?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not

I’m sure the millions of illegitimate fathers out there would like to use that defence to not to pay child support.

I’m sure they would. Fortunately for them, they don’t get executed as a result of the paternity test.

ETA: for the record, the post you quoted wasn’t part of my argument. It was more of a nitpick.

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

It would be if pro-choice people thought fetuses were people, but 99% of us don’t- they are potential people, at least until they become viable. I’m sure there are some out there who do think fetuses are people but are okay with killing them anyway, hence the 1% allowance.

However, convicted criminals are people, no matter how distasteful their crimes may be.

As noted above, I don’t have a philosophical objection to the death penalty anyway. I just don’t see the point, and I have yet to hear a reasonable proposal for how you’d compensate a wrongfully executed person.

ETA: beaten to the punch shakes fist at StR

That’s like saying all “mentally-ill” people aren’t fully born themselves. Being alot of people who are born pre-mature suffer from mental disabilities. Their brain isn’t really fully formed yet.

At one time this country thought that too. They had no respect for human people with low brain capacities. They were all put into mental homes and given lobotomies.

[janeslogin]

I think the concatenation of “death” and “penalty” is an oxymoron. Death is the perfect tranquilizer, the ultimate analgesic.

I am absolutely, unequivocally opposed to capital punishment.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not

That’s like saying all “mentally-ill” people aren’t fully born themselves. Being alot of people who are born pre-mature suffer from mental disabilities. Their brain isn’t really fully formed yet.

“Viable” does not mean “comparable in development to an adult”. It means “capable of survival outside the womb”. A mentally ill person is capable of respiratory function and digestion without an umbilical. A first-trimester fetus is not.

ETA: I’ll be happy to discuss this with you further but I don’t want to hijack this thread (even though it’s yours)- if you’d like to open a separate thread I’ll participate.

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

“Viable” does not mean “comparable in development to an adult”. It means “capable of survival outside the womb”. A mentally ill person is capable of respiratory function and digestion without an umbilical. A first-trimester fetus is not.

ETA: I’ll be happy to discuss this with you further but I don’t want to hijack this thread (even though it’s yours)- if you’d like to open a separate thread I’ll participate.

“Mentally-ill” is such a loose term. There are so many types of people with different forms of mental illness. There are functioning retards who know right from wrong. Which is one of the first signs that they have brain functions that can retain information to be somewhat productive on Earth.

There are classes of retardation BTW. Some of them even think about having families and having children. This is one of the reasons why they were given lobotomies many years ago. They didn’t want them to act out sexually.

As far as first-trimester fetuses. Even though it will probably not live because of lack of body functions. It needs an umbilical cord to breath. That tells me that it can probably be put on a ventilator. Even if it lives for five minutes on Earth on it.

That means it’s living!

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

I’m not a “Bible Thumper” in the least, BTW.

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

Abortion is a legal form a “genocide” if you really want to break it down.

It’s taking away something that you don’t want have exist on Earth for whatever reason it may be.

[Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

ETA: I’ll be happy to discuss this with you further but I don’t want to hijack this thread (even though it’s yours)- if you’d like to open a separate thread I’ll participate.

Yep.

[Syntropy]

@Sometimes_Sober_Sometimes_Not

As far as first-trimester fetuses. Even though it will probably not live because of lack of body functions. It needs an umbilical cord to breath. That tells me that it can probably be put on a ventilator. Even if it lives for five minutes on Earth on it.

That means it’s living!

No, that means the thing it is attached to is living. Fetal life during pregnancy is difficult to define.

[Labdad]

Opposed for three reasons:

1. It allows no room for error.

2. It falls disproportionately on the poor. I don’t think you’ll ever see a wealthy person put to death, because the wealthy get better legal representation.

3. As Steve Earle wrote in Billy Austin, “Could you pull that switch yourself sir, with a sure and steady hand?/Could you then still tell yourself sir, that you’re better than I am?” I couldn’t pull that switch myself.

[John_Carter_of_Mars]

I’m all for the death penalty. Why pay thousands of $ a year to feed and medicate those sons-a-bitches when we can fry 'em and move on?