# Are you OBLIGATED to make a right on red? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 12, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160 "2001-05-12T02:46:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/41 "2001-05-14T06:50:37Z")
Eek, I hope they don’t get those laws against doing things intentionally to piss people off in Texas. When people get needlessly impatient with me and start tailgating or honking their horn, I will make things worse. I have put on the hazard lights and got out and pretended to have car trouble because the guy behind me was being an ass. I probably would have in the case described in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Carina42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@Carina42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carina42)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/42 "2001-05-14T10:28:08Z")
**squib** , point taken. I wouldn’t honk if someone had just one brake light out. But if _all_ brake lights were not working, I would & have tried to get someone’s attention to let them know. I would want to know that. Similarly I would honk if there were keys hanging from the trunk, a purse sitting on top of the car, a tire going flat…I’ve done all of these. Also I’ve beeped to get someone’s attention to ask about a for sale sign on their car (that’s how I got my Incredibly Cheap '67 Plymouth Fury!) Being courteous & sharing the road goes both ways. It includes neither heedlessly impeding other traffic, nor acting like a jerk if someone isn’t driving the way you think they should. I’ve also had people get pissed off because they think I should turn, because they don’t see the pedestrian I’m waiting for, or something. That’s their problem, not mine. I’m not going to add to the impedence problem by doing something asinine like “pretending to have car trouble” though. I try to ignore jerks. I’ve driven safely for 29 years, autos & semis, and on three continents. If you really want “combat driving” try driving a semi in NYC, or driving in the Middle East, or Mexico City! Wheee, it’s fun! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/43 "2001-05-14T10:32:21Z")
Yeah, one time this guy was creepy crawling along right in front of me, about 15 mph in a 35 zone (past a mall parking lot, it’s not like he was watching for an address)… so I passed him, pulled into his lane, and drove even slower for half a block. But that probably deserves to be illegal. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/44 "2001-05-14T16:30:46Z")
Speaking of intentionally annoying rude drivers, this reminds me of a story: I was driving along a freeway at night. I was zipping along at a pretty good clip in the left lane when I noticed a state patrol car in the right lane ahead of me, about a hundred yards up. Naturally, I didn’t want to go zooming past the police car, so I slowed down. I would have moved into the right lane myself, but there was a line of cars there which prevented me from doing so. So there I am, driving the speed limit in the left lane, when this car comes zooming up behind me. Fair enough, but then he starts flashing his bright lights at me and riding my bumper. (Hey moron, I can’t move over. See the car to my right?) I get so annoyed by the guy’s behavior that I slow to a crawl, knowing that it will really, really tick him off. (All part of the master plan then formulating in my head.) Then I speed up _just_ enough to get past the line of cars to my right (but not past the cop car looming up ahead), and I move into the right lane. The jerk then starts to pass me. I speed up to keep up with him, again just to tick him off a bit. (Part of the master plan.) The guy loses his cool and just floors it, zipping up to about 90 mph. He goes roaring past the darkened police car ahead, the cop hits the blue lights, and jerk driver winds up with a speeding ticket and a hefty fine. It was beautiful, man. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/45 "2001-05-14T18:19:05Z")
**Spoke** , you are my hero! About the honking thing: IMHO, there are very, very few occasions when you are in the right for honking at a driver in front of you, in any situation. You’re in a hurry? Tough. I’m in front. Leave earlier tomorrow. Honk if you must, but it will not begin to change my behavior on the road. I don’t know you or your situation personally, so what’s my motivation? You’re in an emergency situation? Make it clear. Go nuts on the horn & lights. Yell like a madman. I expect to run into drivers in your situations less than once a year. **Rilchiam** , do your thing, pal. Are you constantly getting honked at in similar situations? If not, blow off the occasional horn-obsessed jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/46 "2001-05-14T21:00:55Z")
I was sure that Johnny LA was wrong about a right turn having to end up in the rightmost lane, but I seem to have learned something, as he was only half wrong, as was I. After digging through the CA vehicle code, it turns out that a right turn has to end up in the rightmost lane, but only if it’s made from the rightmost lane on a two-way street. This is, of course, the normal right turn situation, but I had in mind a specific intersection. (See CA vehicle code 360, 22100, and 21453 for the exact code) A problem intersection in my town has three lanes entering, two of which turn right, one of which turns left. No one seems to get that if you can turn right from the middle lane when the light is green, you can also do so when the light is red, as long as you aren’t cutting anyone off. I occasionally honk at these people, but somehow the horn is incapable of explaining section 21453 with much eloquence. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/47 "2001-05-14T21:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > You’re in a hurry? Tough. I’m in front. Leave earlier tomorrow. Honk if you must, but it will not begin to change my behavior on the road. I don’t know you or your situation personally, **so what’s my motivation?** What’s your motivation? How about being a decent human being? Look at it another way: If you’re holding someone up, the situation will last… what? Minutes? All that time, you’re becoming angry at the impatient schmuck behind you, and the guy behind you is becoming angry at the arrogant ass in front of him. So much hostility! If you move out of the way, the situation will be resolved in no time. He’ll be on his way, and you won’t have to get angry at anyone. I mean, chill! It’s only a drive. (Of course, being on a motorcycle I can say that. Being on a bike means you seldom get stuck behind people. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/48 "2001-05-14T21:45:43Z")
I don’t know if I was as much as _half_ wrong, **Sengkelat** , since most intersections do not have multiple right-turn lanes; but you are correct that there are intersections that have more than one lane that turns right. This make it that much more important to stick to your own lane in a turn. Imagine if you are in the left right-turn lane, and the person in the right right-turn lane does not stick to his lane. Could be dicey. Impressive that you looked up the code. ---
**Author:** ![squib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@squib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squib)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/49 "2001-05-14T22:18:38Z")
Sengkelat, Most people don’t seem to grasp that you are also permitted to make a _left_ turn on red when turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street. The horn won’t do you any good there either. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2001, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/50 "2001-05-14T23:44:28Z")
> [@](#): > > A problem intersection in my town has three lanes entering, two of which turn right, one of which turns left. No one seems to get that if you can turn right from the middle lane when the light is green, you can also do so when the light is red, as long as you aren’t cutting anyone off. > [@](#): > > Most people don’t seem to grasp that you are also permitted to make a left turn on red when turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street. The horn won’t do you any good there either. Here in Denver we have a nice combination of those two situations. Driving on Lincoln (north- one way) it ends at 20th(west one way) they are both 4 lane streets at that point. It’s always a bit of fun to see how many people will make the left on red from the outermost lane. I’m pretty sure it’s legal, but it does feel wierd crossing three lanes to make a left on red. And to be honest I won’t do it if a cop is in sight. ---
**Author:** ![eLunatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@eLunatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eLunatic)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/51 "2001-05-15T00:37:20Z")
> [@](#): > > (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b). > (b) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn, a driver, after stopping as required by subdivision (a), facing a steady circular red signal, may turn right, or turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street. A driver making such a turn shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to traffic lawfully using the intersection. > > California Vehicle Code, Division 11, Chapter 2, Article 3, Sections 21453(a) and 21453(b) According to CA vehicle code, Rilchiam was not required to turn right while the light was red. IMHO\* she was not obstructing traffic because traffic would not have continued to “flow” even if she had turned (due to the red light). \*Please Note: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I’m just sayin’ I agree with Rilchiam. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/52 "2001-05-15T03:54:51Z")
Woohoo! I’m absolved! ---
**Author:** ![osweetman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@osweetman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/osweetman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/53 "2001-05-15T04:08:28Z")
I think you missed the point… ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/54 "2001-05-15T04:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > A driver making such a turn shall\*\* yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk \*\* and to traffic lawfully using the intersection. Hehe makes it sound like you can go ahead and run over a jaywalker. ---
**Author:** ![squib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@squib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squib)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/55 "2001-05-15T05:35:30Z")
Not so fast! > [@](#): > > VEH §21802. (a) The driver of any vehicle approaching a stop sign [shall stop and yield to other traffic] until he or she can proceed with reasonable safety. > > (b) A driver having yielded as prescribed in subdivision (a) MAY proceed to enter the intersection . . . . See? No different from a stop sign. And don’t tell me you feel it’s appropriate to just hang out at a stop sign indefinitely for a little “breather.” “Absolved” shmabsolved. Get a rope. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/56 "2001-05-15T06:00:06Z")
Wolfman: It IS almost saying that you shouldn’t yield right-of-way to jaywalkers. My brother failed his driver’s license exam exactly for this reason. A jaywalker stood by the side of the road with one foot on the pavement. My brother stopped for him, and was flunked on the spot. The examiner said that it was extremely dangerous to do that, both because you might get rear-ended and because the pedestrian may step out and get hit by another vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/57 "2001-05-15T12:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by squib_: > > Most people don’t seem to grasp that you are also permitted to make a _left_ turn on red when turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street. This is not true in some states, nor is it true in the territory of Washington DC. I got horns blown at me so often for not turning left on red onto a one way street that I decided to ask a BTA hearing examiner the last time I went in to pay a parking ticket. So I would be very wary if I were driving in another state if I didn’t know for certain that such oddball manuvers were allowed. I think it’s better to err on the side of caution, even if it means you’ll be 30 seconds late getting home. ---
**Author:** ![squib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@squib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squib)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/58 "2001-05-15T15:58:07Z")
Attrayant, True. When in doubt, play it safe. Of course, even a _right_ turn on red is illegal in some states. ---
**Author:** ![Sengkelat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Sengkelat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sengkelat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/59 "2001-05-15T16:05:48Z")
Wolfman: CA law of course doesn’t apply to Denver, but that’s just as well. The vehicle code seems a bit confused here, making it sound as if you can never make a left turn from the rightmost lane, except possible when the light is red at two one-way roads. I think it’s just a poorly written law. (it makes specific reference to three-lane roads traveling in one direction, but no provisions for a general multi-lane road) Johnny LA: Let’s not quibble on fractions. I’ll change “half right” to “partly right.” (Unless the road you’re turning from is one-way, in which case you can turn into any lane going that direction) Another odd feature of the law is that it doesn’t prohibit turning right from the middle lane of a one way street into the right lane. If someone was making a right turn from the right lane into that same lane, crunch! There may be judicial precedent that spells some of these things out more clearly, of course. I think the failings of the law to spell out every possible situation just underscores the need to drive carefully and considerately. The primary rule of the road ought to be “Try not to smack into things with your car.” This is not to say I don’t drive like an aggressive bastard at times, of course. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160/60 "2001-05-15T16:18:39Z")
IIRC, in New Jersey it’s illegal to use your horn for any reason other than as a last-resort warning. According to the driver’s manual, you can only use it if, for example, you were about to broadside a car (or be broadsided). But I guess that’s just being picky, and since the word of the law isn’t really enforced in that case, it’s kind of trivial as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-obligated-to-make-a-right-on-red/65160.md?page=4)