# Are you OK with a real life "Eye of Sauron" for mass surveillance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739 "2015-06-28T22:39:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/61 "2015-06-30T04:05:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That immediately invalidates my opinion regarding rational public policy, and I would expect all sensible people to offer me courteous sympathy…and exclude me from important decision-making on such matters. > > Really, with all due respect, it’s a silly question. Of course people’s thinking is different when they’re suffering from severe emotional loss. Do you want a bunch of weeping persons to draft laws? Look, I’m not trying to be rude to you directly but I allways have the same type of reaction. There is the “ideal” answer and there is the “real” answer. Ideally, police do not use violence to achieve their means. But, if I had been kidnapped and was tied up in the dark somewhere and would starve to death if not rescued I would have no problem AT ALL with the police breaking a couple of ribs to make the kidnapper give up my location. That is the honest response. Hypothetical discussion about the ideal way to handle situations see, well, dishonest, for lack of a better word. Unless real world situations are applied, it’s really not discussing, not to have a real, honest discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/62 "2015-06-30T04:07:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s when it’s the most dangerous, because you’ve forgotten about it. > > Just because you can “get used to” horror and injustice doesn’t make them any less horrible or less unjust. > > It’s like the guy living under tyranny who was perfectly okay with the Secret Police: they never knock on his door at three in the morning. > > Except that, one day, they might. > > At that point, the victim will remember what it feels like to be creeped out. you have yet to equate being filmed or monitored to being the same as horror and injustice… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/63 "2015-06-30T04:25:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Just because you can “get used to” horror and injustice doesn’t make them any less horrible or less unjust. A cop can watch you on the street with his physical eyeballs or through a camera. What is the difference between the two let alone horrible and unjust about it? > [@](#): > > That’s when it’s the most dangerous, because you’ve forgotten about it. Okay, so I’ve forgotten about it. Probably because the state hasn’t arrested me or broken down my door in the middle of the night. The only time I’d probably remember it is if someone stole my wallet. At which point I’d be checking if anyone videoed it. So, far I have provided a positive point for having video cameras. What should I be worried about on the negative side? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/64 "2015-06-30T04:45:29Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > I didn’t mean to imply that they would be MORE likely to abuse it. They were just a convenient example. Got it. My apologies for being overly-sensitive to the Dem/Repub divide. > [@Smartass](#): > > The POINT is that we start more surveillance to try to prevent/punish the kind of crimes that we ALL agree should be prevented/punished. Next thing you know, it’s used to destroy the lives of people who are doing something that other people disapprove of. Like, say, smoking pot. Just imagine what fun Drug Warriors can have with a tool like this… I don’t find the slippery slope argument persuasive in this instance. You could make the above argument about a large number of police activity: e.g. if we let them lock up criminals they’ll come after us next. I’m willing to nix techniques of dubious value based on slippery slope but the “eye” technology seems like it has such potential that its utility outweighs potential harm. > [@Smartass](#): > > But based on the amount of overreach we’ve seen recently by the CIA and the NSA, I don’t really personally trust that answer much. It’s too easy to loosen the controls once the surveillance system is fully in place and entrenched. I understand your position but I look at it almost the opposite way: once the actions of the NSA/CIA became public we began taking steps to limit it (we still have a ways to go). I see that as a positive sign that we can control surveillance. > [@Smartass](#): > > Besides, based on the number of people we have imprisoned in this country, I just don’t see where we’ve gotten the idea that we have a real problem arresting people and convicting them of crimes. If anything, we’re too goddamn good at it already. Or we’ve made too many things illegal. Interesting point. I don’t think reigning in crime-fighting techniques is the way to go, though. We could lower prison populations by getting rid of cops. I’d like to think that long-term something like the eye could reduce prison populations: my understanding is that the best deterrent to crime is the belief that one will be caught and caught soon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/65 "2015-06-30T05:29:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > you have yet to equate being filmed or monitored to being the same as horror and injustice… You’re jumping way ahead in the sorites. What I was saying was that “not being creeped out” is not good enough for something not to be horrible or unjust. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/66 "2015-06-30T05:30:41Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/68 "2015-06-30T05:30:54Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > A cop can watch you on the street with his physical eyeballs or through a camera. What is the difference between the two . . . Already covered in this thread. The cop can’t retroactively follow me back to my home. > [@](#): > > . . . let alone horrible and unjust about it? As above, that wasn’t what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/69 "2015-06-30T05:32:05Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > How is this horrible and unjust? You’re repeating yourself. (I’m repeating myself!) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/70 "2015-06-30T05:40:55Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I understand your position but I look at it almost the opposite way: once the actions of the NSA/CIA became public we began taking steps to limit it (we still have a ways to go). I see that as a positive sign that we can control surveillance. Please. You can’t place limits or oversight on spy agencies and expect them to be followed. Their entire job description is doing illegal shit, not getting caught doing it and keeping everything they do super compartmentalized. And of course, every nation needs their spooks a lot more than the spooks need their home government (black financing and whatnot, plus a very valuable skillset in high demand across the globe), which means any punishment must perforce be light or even symbolic, since you don’t want your spooks to turn against you or, worse, disgruntedly start giving away your secret shit to the highest bidder. What did it take to make the government take steps to curb the NSA ? Ed Snowden going public with the shenanigans, giving them no other choice but to at least pretend like they were in control. How often does that happen, and can you rely on an Edward Snowden to keep you posted on what the NSA does with the Eye of Sauron ? And of course, that it took an Edward Snowden is quite telling in the first place - either the government was previously unaware of what was going on ; or they were and didn’t give a shit. Are you comfortable with either proposition ? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/71 "2015-06-30T05:47:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You’re jumping way ahead in the sorites. > > What I was saying was that “not being creeped out” is not good enough for something not to be horrible or unjust. this is at the heart of the debate you think being monitored is really really bad I, and others, who live in very large cities are saying you get used to it How big is the place you live? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/72 "2015-06-30T06:01:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > this is at the heart of the debate > you think being monitored is really really bad > I, and others, who live in very large cities are saying you get used to it > How big is the place you live? Oh yes, you do get used to it. That is not, in fact, a good thing. (besides, I can tell you from personal experience that you get used to getting regularly beat up, to the point that you don’t modify your behaviour to avoid it any more and just wait for it to be over so you can get on with your day. “You get used to it” is a really shit argument in favour or something, is my point) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/73 "2015-06-30T06:03:34Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That is not, in fact, a good thing. Why? > [@](#): > > (besides, I can tell you from personal experience that you get used to getting regularly beat up, to the point that you don’t modify your behaviour to avoid it any more and just wait for it to be over so you can get on with your day. “You get used to it” is a really shit argument in favour or something, is my point) And wouldn’t it be nice to have the video of the person doing the beating to prevent them from continuing it? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/74 "2015-06-30T06:12:28Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh yes, you do get used to it. > That is not, in fact, a good thing. > > (besides, I can tell you from personal experience that you get used to getting regularly beat up, to the point that you don’t modify your behaviour to avoid it any more and just wait for it to be over so you can get on with your day. “You get used to it” is a really shit argument in favour or something, is my point) Except that I would never say “you get used to it” for getting beat up. In terms of vocabulary, does this illustrate my point any better: “The problem is really really really not as bad as you think. In fact, it’s not bad at all. In fact, you quickly get used to it and come to discover that this problem you had imagined is that, simply, a figment of your imagination and nothing more.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/75 "2015-06-30T06:33:25Z")
But it’s not a figment of our imagination ? The cameras are there. They are recording your every move. It doesn’t feel creepy because they blend in the background, but it should. Just as it should feel creepy to entrust every email we send and half the thoughts that pop into our heads to Google. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/76 "2015-06-30T06:34:42Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > They are recording your every move. And? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/77 "2015-06-30T06:45:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > this is at the heart of the debate > you think being monitored is really really bad > I, and others, who live in very large cities are saying you get used to it > How big is the place you live? Well, I never actually said that, you see. You’re jumping ahead and rebutting points you think I will eventually get around to making, but I haven’t done that yet, so your rebuttal is mistimed. I don’t actually think “being monitored is really really bad.” If you’d read what I’ve already written in this thread you’d see that much. I’ve already accepted the principle of monitoring, with certain safeguards and regulations. A court order, a subpoena, a constitutionally required probable cause, all help prevent abuses. I live in the eighth largest city in the United States. (San Diego.) And the fact that one can “get used to it” does not assure anyone that it is not a “really really bad” thing…or even not a bad thing in general terms. It might not be horrible, but it could still be more harmful than helpful. During the sixties and seventies I “got used to” heavy smog in the air, but I’m mighty glad to air quality, today, is not as bad as it was then. > [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh yes, you do get used to it. > That is not, in fact, a good thing. > > (besides, I can tell you from personal experience that you get used to getting regularly beat up, to the point that you don’t modify your behaviour to avoid it any more and just wait for it to be over so you can get on with your day. “You get used to it” is a really shit argument in favour or something, is my point) Absolute agreement. > [@Uzi](#): > > . . . Wouldn’t it be nice to have the video of the person doing the beating to prevent them from continuing it? Sure. It would also be nice to have Terminator Robots or Judge Dredd or Lawgiver Robots or Gort or the Guardians of Oa or Zeus and Apollo in charge of our lives. How much freedom do you want to surrender in return for security? I gave the example of mandatory ID badges on everyone’s shoulder. That would be “nice” also, in very much the same way. It’d be a very friendly society. You’d say, “Hi, Trinopus” and I’d say “Howdy, Uzi.” No more social fumbling about people’s names. It would solve a lot of problems. Should it be the law? Seriously, why not? What do you lose by having your name printed visibly for everyone to see? The only people who would suffer from it would be criminals, really… (And, again seriously, I’m in favor of laws prohibiting people from masking their faces. Too often, this is a foolish discriminatory thing used against “foreigners” who want to wear veils, but I think the real value is worth the social imposition. Veils should be prohibited by law. So, how about name tags?) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/78 "2015-06-30T06:46:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But it’s not a figment of our imagination ? The cameras are there. They are recording your every move. It doesn’t feel creepy because they blend in the background, but it should. Just as it should feel creepy to entrust every email we send and half the thoughts that pop into our heads to Google. You are being way too self centered, in the anthropomorphic way. It SEEMS like having your every move digitally recorded is horrible, but, it’s not. You are far too insignificant for some cop or spy to sit there and watch your every move all day. Even petty criminals would not merit this level of scrutiny or continued observation. You’d have to be a major criminal to have someone watch your every move, all day, every day. You, as an individual, would be lucky to have someone even pay attention to you at all. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/79 "2015-06-30T06:51:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, I never actually said that, you see. You’re jumping ahead and rebutting points you think I will eventually get around to making, but I haven’t done that yet, so your rebuttal is mistimed. > > I don’t actually think “being monitored is really really bad.” If you’d read what I’ve already written in this thread you’d see that much. I’ve already accepted the principle of monitoring, with certain safeguards and regulations. A court order, a subpoena, a constitutionally required probable cause, all help prevent abuses. > > I live in the eighth largest city in the United States. (San Diego.) > > And the fact that one can “get used to it” does not assure anyone that it is not a “really really bad” thing…or even not a bad thing in general terms. It might not be horrible, but it could still be more harmful than helpful. During the sixties and seventies I “got used to” heavy smog in the air, but I’m mighty glad to air quality, today, is not as bad as it was then. I am not trying to out debate you. I am not trying to put words in your mouth in anticipation of knocking them down. I am simply disagreeing with you. But, I have misunderstood you, if you do not think it is “really really bad” to be monitored and recorded on video maybe you can give me an actual example of why it is bad. Not a term like freedom or privacy or civil rights but an actual example of why you object. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/80 "2015-06-30T06:55:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How much freedom do you want to surrender in return for security? I’m still not sure what freedom you think is being given up. Can you provide examples of how a video camera would prevent you from doing anything you are legally allowed to do? > [@](#): > > I gave the example of mandatory ID badges on everyone’s shoulder. That would be “nice” also, in very much the same way. It’d be a very friendly society. You’d say, “Hi, Trinopus” and I’d say “Howdy, Uzi.” No more social fumbling about people’s names. It would solve a lot of problems. An excellent idea. I’m not good on remembering people’s names. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739/81 "2015-06-30T11:52:07Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m still not sure what freedom you think is being given up. Can you provide examples of how a video camera would prevent you from doing anything you are legally allowed to do? The Fourth Amendment requires that people be free from searches that are unreasonable. Pre-emptively video recording literally everyone in a metropolitan area in case that the video is needed is not reasonable because it has no articulable reason why 99.9% of the people in the video should be recorded, and the video stored for an indefinite period. Once the video is recorded, it could be used in ways that we do not intend for it to be used today. Although we are now debating catching murderers and such, the same technology could be used for mass enforcement of traffic laws - suddenly I get a ticket in the mail for speeding because I went 66 miles an hour for five seconds while I was looking to change lanes. Or, the information could be subject to subpoena in civil cases. Should the government facilitate the use of this information for divorce cases and catching a cheating spouse? There’s a difference between having an expectation of privacy and being agreeable to having every movement filmed. If I’m on the street, I do not expect that I have a right to keep my conversations secret. However, that doesn’t mean that it is okay for the government to put microphones everywhere to record my conversations in case they might come in handy at some later date. The sheer size and duration of the surveillance is what the problem is. The fact that is would not be intrusive is not the point. The Fourth Amendment doesn’t prohibit searches that are annoying or noticeable, it prohibits searches that are unreasonable. Since the Supreme Court has already unanimously ruled that using an electronic device to track a person’s movements in public for an extended period of time constitutes a search, despite it being in public, and also acknowledging that the justices had different reasoning for their conclusions, there’s no doubt at all that the government isn’t allowed to try to be omnicient just in case it might help an investigation later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-ok-with-a-real-life-eye-of-sauron-for-mass-surveillance/723739.md?page=5)