Are you opposed to voter ID laws?

[YogSothoth]

@Lord_Feldon

Registering your kids in a public school is, actually. But it’s not a good example of something that requires ID. A school can’t even refuse admission to a child who is forbidden by federal law from being present in the country, so I don’t think it would get away with refusing admission to a child whose parents don’t have state-issued photo ID. This is one of those things where people confuse a request with a demand.

I think the differences between the two are significant enough that you cannot use it as an analogy. Fraudulent school enrollment harms no one really, it just means the wrong child is getting an education. Making up a fake child’s name to enroll just means that kid is getting an education where otherwise he wouldn’t. Only if one child is being prevented from going to school is there harm, and that’s already illegal.

With voting, not only do we have to ensure everyone can do it, we know that it must be done correctly. An incorrectly tallied vote is as much of a violation of a person’s right to vote as a vote prevented, and that doesn’t apply to the school example. Plus, not only is the actual person in question, the child, not responsible for ensuring he can get to school, its further divorced from personal responsibility as his parents are the one that must enroll him. With voting, every responsibility falls on the government to ensure this guy isn’t inconvenienced or dissuaded from voting, something the GOP has been trying desperately to do for years. There may be a time when we don’t need to worry about the Republican attack on voters, but we are far away from that utopia. I’m glad Scalia died and courts are throwing these laws out the window

[septimus]

A moment’s reflection on risk / reward tradeoffs should suggest how unlikely illegal votes are.

@Saint_Cad

One possibility: Because illegal immigrants can register to vote without proving citizenship but it is extremely difficult to get photo ID showing legal residence in REAL ID states.

OP was not forthcoming enough to answer my question, but you did: Apparently you think *It’s not the GOP trying to suppress legal votes; it’s the Democrats trying to encourage illegal votes. * Another variation of “Your side does it too; nanner nanner nanner!”

Oh: But you did write “One possibility.” Is this like the famous FauxNews disclaimer “Some people say” ?

@Saint_Cad

No because it is not issued by the state available to all legal residents.

There are valid reasons why some ID should be unacceptable, once a state goes the ID route. To some extent discussion of college ID is a digression. I’m more interested in your claim (oh I forgot, “Some peoiple say” claim) that the the Democrats oppose voter-suppression laws because they want illegal votes.

But since you introduced the topic of “available to all legal residents”, what do you think of states which DO allow a concealed-carry gun permit to be used as voter ID?

Poor black people having trouble getting ID should borrow money for a gun so thay can vote? :eek:

[Saint_Cad]

@septimus

OP was not forthcoming enough to answer my question, but you did: Apparently you think *It’s not the GOP trying to suppress legal votes; it’s the Democrats trying to encourage illegal votes. * Another variation of “Your side does it too; nanner nanner nanner!”

Oh: But you did write “One possibility.” Is this like the famous FauxNews disclaimer “Some people say” ?

Ummm no, it a possibility like I said. I don’t think the DNC is rounding up illegal immigrants in a registration drive but I’m sure some Dems see an advantage in a system where basically anyone can vote wither a citizen or not. Incidently there are recorded cases of resident aliens registering and voting because they thought since they were here legally they could vote but that’s Voting Rights Act issue not a voter ID issue.

@septimus

There are valid reasons why some ID should be unacceptable, once a state goes the ID route. To some extent discussion of college ID is a digression. I’m more interested in your claim (oh I forgot, “Some peoiple say” claim) that the the Democrats oppose voter-suppression laws because they want illegal votes.

But since you introduced the topic of “available to all legal residents”, what do you think of states which DO allow a concealed-carry gun permit to be used as voter ID?

Poor black people having trouble getting ID should borrow money for a gun so thay can vote? :eek:

Does the CWP have a photo attached. If not then no. I have been consistent every time one of these threads come up.
The current systems should be updated so it is easier to retrieve vital records.
Counties should be proactively getting people state ID cards, birth certificates, etc. when they cannot get it through normal means.
Registering to vote should require proof of citizenship.
Voters should have to prove identity with photo ID when voting.

If all of these were in place, what objection do you have?

[Little_Nemo]

@aceplace57

I have read the arguments in this thread. Good points have been raised. It’s made aware that safeguards need to be in place. I didn’t know student ID cards weren’t accepted. That needs fixing.

There are a lot of organizations out there from both parties working hard to get people voting. Providing all types of services. There’s usually a 2 year period between election cycles. Plenty of time to help potential voters get ID.

Public records are being rapidly digitalized. Making it much easier for authorized clerks to pull up birth and other records to confirm identity, state residency, and that no felony record exists.

I understand discriminatory voting restrictions need to be challenged and struck down. I do think ID requirements can be done in a fair and just way.

You’re wrong.

The whole point of this plan is to introduce unfairness into the system. And you can’t do that in a fair way.

You’re consistently denying the historical reality that laws like this are manipulated by government officials. That’s their sole purpose - they only exist to give government officials something to manipulate.

So it’s pointless to say that these laws can theoretically be handled in a fair way because there’s no intent to handle them in a fair way. They want to have the ability to be unfair. If we give them this power, they’re going to use it. If they didn’t want to use the power, they wouldn’t be asking for it.

It’s meaningless to say it will be possible for a clerk to check records and issue a valid ID in twenty-four hours if they want to do so. Because the real question is this: how long will it take a clerk to check those records and issue that ID* if they don’t want to do so* and if there’s no way to compel them to do so? The answer is forever.

You’ve just invented a system where government officials get to decide who gets to vote.

[Little_Nemo]

@Saint_Cad

Does the CWP have a photo attached. If not then no. I have been consistent every time one of these threads come up.
The current systems should be updated so it is easier to retrieve vital records.
Counties should be proactively getting people state ID cards, birth certificates, etc. when they cannot get it through normal means.
Registering to vote should require proof of citizenship.
Voters should have to prove identity with photo ID when voting.

If all of these were in place, what objection do you have?

No matter how many loopholes you close, they’ll just find new ones.

[Little_Nemo]

@Saint_Cad

One possibility: Because illegal immigrants can register to vote without proving citizenship but it is extremely difficult to get photo ID showing legal residence in REAL ID states.

It’s trivially easy to get fake ID cards. I was at a flea market in Texas where a guy was selling fake photo driver’s licenses for fifty bucks.

No problem you say. We only allow people with valid photo ID’s to vote on Election Day and tell the people with fake photo ID’s they can’t vote.

Okay. And who decides on Election Day which photo ID’s are valid and which photo ID’s are fake?

[scr4]

@Saint_Cad

…but I’m sure some Dems see an advantage in a system where basically anyone can vote wither a citizen or not.

What makes you sure?

[boytyperanma]

@Saint_Cad

No because it is not issued by the state available to all legal residents.
It does not show legal residency.
It does not have to be surrendered if you have moved to another state.
It does not require the same documentation as a state-issued ID.

By your standards drivers licenses and passports aren’t valid ID.

A drivers license is not available to all legal residents.
My drivers license does not list my correct address (MA does not issue new licenses for change of address.)
Does any state require you return your physical license if you leave state?

Passport is not issued by the my state it’s issued by a federal office.
My passport does not show my current address
My passport is not surrendered if I leave the state.

I thought the purpose of requiring a photo ID was to identify people trying to commit in person voter fraud. If someone has a state issued ID with their photo on it why shouldn’t it count? What type of fraud are you trying to prevent?

[k9bfriender]

@boytyperanma

By your standards drivers licenses and passports aren’t valid ID.

A drivers license is not available to all legal residents.
My drivers license does not list my correct address (MA does not issue new licenses for change of address.)
Does any state require you return your physical license if you leave state?

Passport is not issued by the my state it’s issued by a federal office.
My passport does not show my current address
My passport is not surrendered if I leave the state.

I thought the purpose of requiring a photo ID was to identify people trying to commit in person voter fraud. If someone has a state issued ID with their photo on it why shouldn’t it count? What type of fraud are you trying to prevent?

Evidently, the “fraud” of republicans losing elections.

[urban1a]

Voter ID laws, IMHO, are designed specifically to restrict minority voters from exercising their right. Although they purport to be designed to prevent voter fraud, they are designed to make it more difficult for the poor, elderly and minorities to be able to vote by making the places of registration harder to get to (further away) or requiring proof’s of identification which are difficult to obtain or are expensive to obtain.

If you wish some cites, I’ll be happy to look around for some for you.

Bob

[JRDelirious]

@boytyperanma

Passport is not issued by the my state it’s issued by a federal office.
My passport does not show my current address
My passport is not surrendered if I leave the state

Which apply also to Military ID, which is another that the Voter-ID supporters tend to consider acceptable.

(BTW: on the passport, there is a space to write in your address yourself, in pencil).

[Saint_Cad]

@boytyperanma

By your standards drivers licenses and passports aren’t valid ID.

Then you completely missed what I said. My point was that college IDs are not official state issued IDs. And for the purposes of state ID driver licenses and state IDs are equivalent except for driving.

[boytyperanma]

@Saint_Cad

Then you completely missed what I said. My point was that college IDs are not official state issued IDs. And for the purposes of state ID driver licenses and state IDs are equivalent except for driving.

I did understand what you said. You gave a list of reasons not to accept student IDs even though your reasons included reasons that would make licenses invalid. No one else seemed to have trouble interpreting and came to the same conclusion.

Student IDs issued by state colleges and universities are issued by an agent of the state just like drivers licenses or state IDs. I can understand not accepting IDs from private universities as the state has no control over those, but if it’s isued by an agent of the state it’s ridiculous to claim they should be less valid than other IDs issued by a different agent of the state.

[Saint_Cad]

I guess the question is what is the purpose of the ID. I disagree that IDs issued by a state college are essentially a state issued ID. However I do think they should be acceptable as a photo ID if the purpose is to match a name in the voter rolls with a face. However, how easy it it to forge a school ID? That may be another issue.

[Kimera757]

@aceplace57

This part really bugs me. Why would they assume poor people don’t have ID? Do they think these people register for food stamps and other assistance without ID? Do they buy beer without ID? Poor people often don’t have bank accounts. Cashing checks then requires two forms of ID! It’s printed on a sign at the bank. I keep a few $50 bills in a drawer at home to pay my yard guy for mowing. Because it’s such a PITA for him to cash a check.

This isn’t always true. I live in Ontario, and there’s new Ontario photo ID, a replacement for people who don’t drive. I can’t drive due to an eye condition, but even if I could I wouldn’t due to not wanting to buy a car and pay for gas and insurance… The card only costs $35, renew every five years. My mother and brother don’t have one. Neither have great vision and the cards were specifically marketed toward people who had vision too poor to drive. This is in contrast with a SIN (Social Security) card, or a health card, which are free.

Both are poor, but I know my mother could afford a card like that if she really needed to get one. My brother, on the other hand, couldn’t possibly afford something like that. Both have passports though.

Health cards are free, but apparently a lot of places don’t accept them as ID. I understand you can’t use one to set up a bank account. In the last week I spoke to a couple of Canadians who could not set up bank accounts due to lack of ID (there’s no way they didn’t have health cards). There’s no Chexsystems in Canada, so it’s a little surprising to meet a Canadian facing that problem.

Sometimes American states deliberately make getting ID hard. They’ll shut down almost all motor vehicle departments in a poor area, so you need to travel a long distance to get one, and can only get one during business hours. I’m not sure what kinds of ID Americans who don’t drive get. On the other hand, if ID were relatively easy to get, I’d question why someone can’t spend $30-50 to get ID. Can’t the Democratic Party help people get ID? Once you’ve helped them, they can vote next election too. Shouldn’t turnout efforts be focusing on this?

I think having states set election laws is bonkers. In Canada, election law is set by the federal government, which is almost always more rational and less extreme than any provincial government, and ridings (our electoral districts) are created by non-partisan (not bipartisan!) committees. A law that disenfranchises poor conservatives in one province is probably disenfranchising poor liberals in another province, which makes it rather difficult to “weed out” “undesirable” voters.

It’s quite possible to go life without much of any ID. For a long time I had just a SIN card (equivalent to a Social Security Card) as my only ID. It can be even worse if you live with your parents or roommates, as you might not have any utility bills, rent bills, etc. If you don’t have a bank account… While most people carry ID, it’s not actually required by law. (You must have your license to drive, but if you aren’t driving today, or don’t drive at all, you don’t need one. You must have a passport to travel across the border, but if you never cross the border you don’t need one.)

[Spiderman]

@YogSothoth

Fraudulent school enrollment harms no one really, it just means the wrong child is getting an education. Making up a fake child’s name to enroll just means that kid is getting an education where otherwise he wouldn’t. Only if one child is being prevented from going to school is there harm, and that’s already illegal.

It costs roughly $15 - 20m to educate a pupil. By inappropriately sending your (hypothetical) child to my district when you live in the next town cost me & the other taxpayers in my district extra tax. If a couple of people do it with you, now we need to hire an extra teacher. If enough people do it, we need to build an addition to the school for more classrooms. When caught, they toss the kid out & make the parents reimburse costs. Failure to do such sometimes results in criminal charges.[/Hijack]

@Kimera757

I think having states set election laws is bonkers. In Canada, election law is set by the federal government, which is almost always more rational and less extreme than any provincial government, and ridings (our electoral districts) are created by non-partisan (not bipartisan!) committees. A law that disenfranchises poor conservatives in one province is probably disenfranchising poor liberals in another province, which makes it rather difficult to “weed out” “undesirable” voters.

There are 435 Congresscritters divided up amongst the 50 states. Every ten years, after the census they are redistributed so a state may gain or lose one (or two). This requires a redrawing of the congressional boundary map to either add or subtract a seat for the state. This is done at the state level, & usually by the party in power.
Look at the 16th District (SE corner) of Pennsylvania’s Congressional district map. Chester in the east is a poor urban area. Lancaster to the west is Amish country. Do you think these areas have anything in common when it comes to ‘wants’ from the government? Look how this district was gerrymandered to wrap around the 7th. Wouldn’t it have been easier to draw them so that each has a smaller geographic footprint yet the same constituent count? Same with the 10th & 11th in the NE part of the state.

What you’re seeing is classic gerrymandering to keep the in-power party in power.

[actualliberalnotoneofthose]

I am against it and I am also against ID creep in general, though the voter ID laws have more specific issues. For the general issue of showing IDs, yes I have a problem that people are expected to show an ID for merely existing. You shouldn’t have to show a driver’s license for walking or being a passenger in a vehicle while not doing anything but sitting. It’s completely bizarre to me that anyone is OK with that. I’m not that old and I lived several years without a social security number or card somehow, and I certainly didn’t need any kind of ID card until I started driving.