I think you should find better sources. I’ve only read about it here, which is a great source, and the more thoughtful posters describe it as a way to think about issues that different people will face. For example, as a straight white male, I will likely face less discrimination than a trans black female. However, if I were blind or a little person or disabled or homeless, I’ll have problems that a trans black female wouldn’t face even though I’m a SWM. It’s not about points, it’s about understanding obstacles that different groups face.
Anyway, that’s my understanding from what I’ve picked up here.
I am extremely privileged. White, male, cis, het, able bodied, born into a stable upper middle class family, in a wealthy and relatively stable country.
In my understanding, privilege as it’s used in this thread can be summed up as a relative lack of obstacles. I was never hassled by cops growing up – that’s an obstacle I never had to face, which could have harmed my body, as well as instigated a distrust of law enforcement or authority in general. I was never treated as intrinsically dangerous by significant parts of my community, which could have similar effects. I was never a target of sexual assault or harassment, which could have harmed my physical and mental health, greatly increasing the difficulty in succeeding in almost any endeavor. I was never a target of violence due to sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, or race, which could have caused similar harm. I was never bombarded with media representations that were tilted towards showing people that looked like me as less capable, more dangerous, or otherwise inferior. The media roles I was exposed to for the various categories under which society labels me included many that were prestigious and highly achievable – doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. I did not face dozens of very small differences in treatment day-to-day that served to send continuous messages that I am somehow lesser or inferior in our society. The language dialect I grew up speaking is the dominant language dialect in my society – I was never told the natural way I speak is “incorrect English”, or anything like that. I could go on and on, but these are several significant examples of the obstacles I haven’t had to face, unlike many others.
Noting that everyone’s got an overlapping set of identities is common sense. Only an idiot would not realize and account for that. It’s somewhat distressing that it’s even a topic of academic discussion- it falls in the category of things like “Water is wet”.
But what’s the point of noting that sort of thing formally, if not to try and quantify it / gauge it’s relative impact? It’s exactly what we’re doing here- people are listing out how they are privileged, and coming up with a final assessment.
So far, nobody’s come out with anything controversial, but there are plenty of situations where it might very well be- if you have a white male who grew up disabled and in poverty who decides to say that he’s oppressed instead of privileged, someone around here is going to take umbrage at that, as they’re white and male. Similarly, if you were to take Deion Sanders’ daughter and say that she’s privileged, someone would probably proclaim the opposite because she’s black and a woman.
Is not intersectionality a framework for trying to determine that relative privilege?
Actually let me start back from here because in retrospect your saying this demonstrates that you (and HurricaneDitka) are sailing right by the point I was trying to make.
You both agreed that, by simple virtue of having been born & living in a Western society, you were entirely privileged compared to the vast majority of humankind. That is undeniable. Now here’s the salient point : that does not, in and of itself, make you a bad person. For one thing, the circumstances of your birth (and to an extremely large, but not entirely or at least less irreversible way, the world’s socio-economic status) are beyond your control, conscious decision, or ability to change. It’s a simple fact, or a pair of simple facts : you enjoy an innate advantage over millions of people, and that is not a moral failing on your part.
I want you both to read those two facts again until you imprint them intimately.
THEN you can transpose them to your bugaboos, those silly ethnic minorities and women and gays and whatnot who, ACCORDING TO YOU, AND IN YOUR MIND, are trying to make you responsible or scapegoats or guilt you or whatever persecution you think you’re facing by their stating that you are, in fact, privileged over them.
Because that’s emphatically not their point. They don’t care about how you feel about it, and they’re not trying to say you’re a bad person because you’re white, or cis, or hetero, or male. They’re simply saying that your being any or all of this gives you an innate advantage over them in a great many situations and contexts in our Western societies which is as undeniable as the advantage the circumstances of your birth have given you over a kid born in the southern Sahel. What you do with that information is up to you.
And again, this is not (or at least, should not - I’m aware that a bunch of idiot, attention-seeking twits make the same mistake you do albeit coming the other way) a moral failing on your part or an accusation against you. You can’t change the fact that you’re white. You can’t change the fact that you’re not gay. You can change the fact that you’re male, technically, but nobody’s asking you to. Similarly you can’t make anyone else white, or straight, or male (well, again, the latter you technically can but it’s even worse discrimination-wise :)).
It’s not a contest. It’s not an oppression olympics, and it’s not a moral accusation or value judgement.
It’s simply a matter of accepting demonstrable facts and circumstances as being true. What they ARE asking you to realize is simply that as of right now they face difficulties which you do not, did not, will not - and maybe they’re asking you to help them alleviate what part of these difficulties is within your power to change. That they are facing many of these difficulties because of societal, cultural, economic realities that you CAN change, or participate in changing at least because no one’s asking you to single-handedly solve racism. Just… just realize that your having “Jack Thompson” on your birth certificate and ID card is enough to give you a leg up over “Abdel Al-Raman” when job-seeking for example - for a number of correctible factors. Realize that men tend to take you more seriously and listen to what you say more attentively in a variety of contexts because you’re “Jack Thompson” and not “Lizzie Thompson”. Realize that you’re never ever going to be stopped by the police because you’re driving a car that’s suspiciously expensive for your skin colour, or beat up because you were seen kissing a woman in the street.
Again, those are all undeniable facts, as undeniable as the fact that you’re healthier and eat better than the average Somali and will for the rest of your (and their) life. They are not value judgements. They do not make you a bad person.
But denying those demonstrable facts, or handwaving them away for whatever reason maybe does.
Interesting results thus far. It’s been a consistent 10% vs. 90% since yesterday. Although the Dope tends to trend towards smart, educated, wealthy and successful white people, IIRC.
Wonder if this poll were done of American/Western society at large - might be 40% identifying as oppressed vs. 60% privileged?
Definitely privileged at this point: white, middle class, middle-aged (50) woman who is at least considered by some to be relatively good looking and have a fairly charming/outgoing personality. I only mention looks and personality because middle-aged woman can often feel overlooked or invisible in society/social settings and I never am. I consider that part of my privilege since looks and personality are something you are generally born with.
Intersectionality succumbs to similar shortcomings that talk of privilege does if it’s used to try to whittle down one’s advantages/lack of disadvantages in formulaic fashion or via dialogue that presupposes a linear quality of life given the existence of a trait, a mechanical view of how society and the individual interact, etc. There should be some humility in our limitations in understanding these things and what we know about others. Intersectionality can be very useful to think about and sometimes doing so may debunk popular misconceptions; I don’t know that I trust those who would apply it as more than a tool. People can evaluate themselves if that floats their boat. It is no one’s place to deduce the privilege of another with certainty. I think it would be more fruitful if we framed discussion around disadvantages suffered rather than so much focus on what privilege means, because the former tend to be more quantifiable and decent folks should be able to thoughtfully engage and empathize without everything being in relation to themselves all the time.
Oppressed but not terribly so. But the first thought that sprang to mind was: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That’s what I’m on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn’t you?
I thought I was privileged because I live in the greatest country on earth in the best time to be alive in world history, but after reading this thread I may have made a mistake. I have been pulled over several times by the police, I may have been oppressed all this time and not realized it.
Privileged. Came from a lower middle class home and checked out of the workforce as a six figure earner, despite 23 years hiatus in the military making squat. We have enough to live very comfortably, barring any real disaster, have a good retirement income, and have no debt.
I’ve seen the oppressed parts of the world, and I don’t think 99% of Americans qualify for that descriptive.
Privilege is relative. By some measures we are all privileged. I bet that not even one Doper died of a terrible disease before he or she was 5, the way many did in the past.
I think objection to privilege is not privilege, it is the refusal to acknowledge it. Kind of like Mitt Romney wondering why everyone didn’t get ahead by starting a business. After all, all you have to do is ask your dad for a loan of $100K (or a million, I forger.) That’s obnoxious privilege. Not that he could do that - that he was unaware that not everyone could.
Positives, privilege-wise: White, 50s, upper middle class, grew up in stable family as an only child, college degree, intelligent, relatively low debt, relatively healthy physically and mentally, relatively socially adept, own a home (with the bank) in one of the most expensive areas of the U.S.
Negatives: Female, overweight, not terribly attractive.
Whenever I’m in a predominately black setting, I feel privileged. I don’t stick out like a sore thumb, I feel a sense of “belonging”, and I don’t have to worry about people thinking bad things about me because of my race and treating me accordingly. So when I’m in a place like Atlanta, my hometown, I feel like I can relax.
But if I’m driving around in, say, southwest Virginia, I don’t feel very privileged, despite being middle-class.
Sometimes being a woman is an advantage. Like when I’m stranded on the side of the road. Most times being a woman doesn’t confer any advantage. And sometimes it is an disadvantage. Every time I talk to my dad, who is quite progressive in a lot of ways, I’m reminded how pervasive sexism is still in our society.
I am in the privileged position of not knowing how it feels to be “body-shamed” or having a physical handicap. I have also never had to deal with the social stigma of poverty.
But I have experienced other stigmas.
So whether I’m privileged or not depends on the context I’m in.
To me, groups are oppressed. It’s not an individualized experience. I belong to multiple groups that can reasonably be considered “oppressed”, but that doesn’t mean I can pinpoint how I personally have been harmed. To whit, there were no doubt some slaves who felt like their lives were pretty okay, all things considered, since they had “good white folks” bossing them around. But their contentment over their “good luck” doesn’t take away the fact that they still were oppressed.
And nowadays, I believe, women heavily outnumber men among students at most colleges and universities.
Did you know that in Massachusetts male drug addicts can be sent to prison, while females in the same circumstances cannot be?
There are, and always have been, and always will be vast differences in the average treatment of men and women as groups. No doubt 60 years ago many legal and institutional barriers blocked women more than men. Nowadays many, thought not all, American institutions function better for women than men.
In any case, to avoid hijacking, that’s all I’ll say in this thread. If you want to start a GD thread on the topic, I’ll participate.