# Are you pro-choice because you are smart? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 3, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650 "2019-09-03T23:42:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/41 "2019-09-05T00:56:21Z")
> [@skyr](#): > > If that is true for pro-lifers, then why isn’t it also true of laws against other forms of killing too? “Who am I to tell that guy he can’t murder his ex-wife? He knows better than I do what their marriage was like. Maybe he has a very good reason for wanting her dead.” > It seems like you are presupposing that the life of a fetus is less significant than the life of a born person with this line of thought. Pretty much all pro-lifers that I know consider fetuses to be living human beings and think it is wrong to kill them, so of course they don’t agree. > This is why I am against gun control of any kind, because I don’t think I am smart enough to decide for everyone the limits of their constitutional rights to own firearms. > If you think you need to own an AR-15 or a fully automatic machine gun, then that’s between you and God. Surely gun enthusiasts know more about weapons than I do and are going to make better choices about what guns they should own than I can. They should be able to make that decision for themselves, instead of having those decisions taken away from them by a bunch of old men in Washington. That’s what the big difference between pro-choice and pro-life positions boil down to: whether or not a murder is occuring when an abortion is performed. If abortion isn’t murder, and what is considered murder is governed by man made laws and enforcement, then abortion is no different than removing the placenta after birth. So in this sense, _pro lifers_ are the ones treating what they claim is murder that is just like all other forms, differently than all those other forms. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/42 "2019-09-05T01:05:49Z")
> [@skyr](#): > > If that is true for pro-lifers, then why isn’t it also true of laws against other forms of killing too? “Who am I to tell that guy he can’t murder his ex-wife? He knows better than I do what their marriage was like. Maybe he has a very good reason for wanting her dead.” > It seems like you are presupposing that the life of a fetus is less significant than the life of a born person with this line of thought. Pretty much all pro-lifers that I know consider fetuses to be living human beings and think it is wrong to kill them, so of course they don’t agree… You seem smart, but you sure don’t seem pro-choice. Are you sure you’re in the right thread? Any chance for those cites I requested above? OP: I’m going to assume you haven’t signed in again and that’s why you’re not replying to questions directly asked of you. Because otherwise, that would be pretty rude in your own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/43 "2019-09-05T01:40:03Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > How on earth can you say this? Everyone does _not_ agree that every time an abortion takes place, a murder has occured. Some, however, _do_. The facts of an abortion is that a pregnancy is terminated. Whether or not an abortion is a murder is a question of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/44 "2019-09-05T01:41:49Z")
> [@skyr](#): > > If that is true for pro-lifers, then why isn’t it also true of laws against other forms of killing too? “Who am I to tell that guy he can’t murder his ex-wife? He knows better than I do what their marriage was like. Maybe he has a very good reason for wanting her dead.” As **Ambivalid** noted, though, the difference is that murder is officially a crime. Pro-lifers are trying to tell abortion-rights supporters that they ought to consider abortion the same as murder, even though abortion (in the form that abortion-rights supporters are defending, at least) is **not** a crime. In which respect, pro-lifers are no different from militant PETA-type vegetarians trying to tell everybody else that meat-eating is the same as murder. They’re entitled to regulate their own behavior in accordance with their own views, but they’re not entitled to impose their beliefs on people who don’t agree with them. > [@skyr](#): > > It seems like you are presupposing that the life of a fetus is less significant than the life of a born person with this line of thought. Well, that’s exactly the position that abortion law, based on longstanding tradition in most human societies, explicitly establishes, so not much of a shocker, really. > [@skyr](#): > > Pretty much all pro-lifers that I know consider fetuses to be living human beings Except most of them don’t actually believe that in a logically consistent way. For instance, ask any self-identified pro-lifer you know to do the “fire in a fertility clinic” thought experiment—the one where you suppose that a fire breaks out in a fertility clinic, and there’s one 6-month-old baby in a child carrier at one end of the clinic and an insulated medical transport case containing a thousand viable fertilized eggs at the other end, and it’s only possible for you to rescue one of the two while the other will be burned up in the fire, so you have to choose which will survive—and they will almost certainly plump for rescuing the one 6-month-old living human being instead of the one thousand “living human beings”. > [@skyr](#): > > This is why I am against gun control of any kind, because I don’t think I am smart enough to decide for everyone the limits of their constitutional rights to own firearms. […] Surely gun enthusiasts know more about weapons than I do and are going to make better choices about what guns they should own than I can. They should be able to make that decision for themselves, instead of having those decisions taken away from them by a bunch of old men in Washington. Well, you seem willing to let the bunch of old men in Washington take away from them the decisions about whether they can own nuclear missiles or anti-aircraft weapons, for example. I think it’s kind of hypocritical to arbitrarily declare that a certain category of weapon must be completely free from government regulation while so many others aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/45 "2019-09-05T01:50:21Z")
> [@skyr](#): > > If that is true for pro-lifers, then why isn’t it also true of laws against other forms of killing too? “Who am I to tell that guy he can’t murder his ex-wife? He knows better than I do what their marriage was like. Maybe he has a very good reason for wanting her dead.” > It seems like you are presupposing that the life of a fetus is less significant than the life of a born person with this line of thought. Pretty much all pro-lifers that I know consider fetuses to be living human beings and think it is wrong to kill them, so of course they don’t agree. There are moral issues in which one side is clearly right and the other side is so clearly wrong it’s virtually non-existent. You don’t find people arguing whether or not murder is moral. Or slavery or cannibalism. But there is no such consensus about abortion. People may feel their side is right but you won’t find anyone saying that everyone agrees that their side is right. Pro-choice people acknowledge two sides exist - and don’t impose their moral views on the other side. Nobody is ever forced to have an abortion if they think it’s wrong. It’s the pro-life people who want to impose their moral views on people who don’t agree with that moral view. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/46 "2019-09-05T02:07:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The facts of an abortion is that a pregnancy is terminated. Whether or not an abortion is a murder is a question of morality. No, whether something is murder or not is determined by whether or not the being that was killed was human and that it was committed in a premeditated fashion. There is no morality influencing those facts. Are you saying our laws are dictated and shaped by moral judgments? Or just abortion law? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/47 "2019-09-05T02:40:58Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Fundamentally, the two sides differ on fetal personhood. The pro-life side has a embryo/fetus-centric view, and holds the view that a fertilized egg is a person at the moment of conception- the rest is just growth and eventually birth, and that destroying it is tantamount to murdering any other absolutely defenseless person, especially when done for reasons of convenience or economic utility. The pro-choice side doesn’t look at it that way- they have a more woman-centric view, and views that the woman is in charge of all that since it’s her body and it’s nobody else’s business what she does with it. For the record, I hold neither of these positions and I am hesitant to state without a qualifying statement that many hold the first. No one, cracking open a chicken’s egg\* and finding plain ol’ white and yolk inside feels the same thing as if they had just smashed a living chicken’s head in and watched it die under their hands. Instinctively, we recognize the difference between goo and life and, obviously, the baby-creation process is not a magical switch. The transformation from goo to life is a progression through stages. Bringing up “a woman’s right” is unnecessary when we are talking about goo. Goo don’t give a jack and we don’t give a jack about goo. That some do in the case of humans is _capricious_ and anything logical is, by definition, not capricious. By similar rights, it is capricious for harder drugs to be legal than some illegal drugs and that shouldn’t be the case regardless of whether you’re pro or con of legalized recreational drugs. If we consider chicken goo to be goo, then human goo is goo. If we happily go around slapping insects on the walls, because we understand that they have 1 brain cell and that brain cell doesn’t do anything in the realm of understanding the self, well then anything with a single brain cell is pretty clearly on the “we don’t really give a jack” list. Many people, not trained to be cold and merciless, would feel uncomfortable to take a rock, hold down a live dog, and bash its head in. Vegetarianism has a long history even before an age where mankind could safely trust his ability to consistently put food on the table. There is a point where we recognize that things are getting fishy and that the morality is more questionable. Humans are just nerves, brain cells, and protein the same as everything else living on the planet. The rules should be relatively consistent. Historically, abortion and infanticide seems to have been wildly common. Female babies would simply be taken into the forest and abandoned or quickly put out of their misery if they weren’t going to be productive and would simply cause the family to starve. That I’m aware, the belief that a newly born baby is more in the realm of a human and less in the realm of a cat so far as the morality of killing goes, is largely a product of Judeo-Christian thought. Minus that and [our](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e5e/df02ede067ce17f31cac97bfcb4c4a34a75f.pdf) [natural instincts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide) [go the other way](http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0102-311X2010000500002). So I would hold that people don’t feel like fetuses are human nor even newly born babes - that doesn’t seem to be the way it has worked over the vast expanse of human history - they’re told that it’s the case and maintain it out of indoctrination. That’s a slightly different thing from feeling like a murder has happened and, thusly, you note that there’s no real push to punish anyone for the crime - just to disallow it. - This is a discussion of abortion. Yes, I know that your average store-bought chicken’s egg is not fertilized. Thank you. A fertilized egg, however, is nigh-indistinguishable from a non-fertilized one (so long as the farmer gathered it within 24 hours of it being laid and refrigerated it) and you would never know if someone gave you one. Any farm-bought, organic-y egg you have ever bought or perhaps been fed at a nice restaurant may well have been a fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/48 "2019-09-05T02:47:51Z")
I’m pro-choice because I ride bikes. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/49 "2019-09-05T11:41:51Z")
I’m pro choice, for several reasons, being smart or intelligent are not two of those reasons. I’m lazy, apathetic, male (I’ll never have to deal with carrying a baby to term in my own body), vasectomized (never have to deal with raising more kids unless I actively work hard at getting someone elses kids) and **kimstu’s** post above provides some clarification and justification for a vague notion about the whole issue I’ve had for quite some time. Also, I don’t get paid for my stance sooo, wouldn’t that be amateur choice instead of pro choice? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/50 "2019-09-05T16:41:03Z")
Thanks for all the replies, even the ones that were just to bitch at me. In this thread, and its predecessor, I have learned some valuable things about dopers who I never really noticed before. They gave me a lot of thoughtful, detailed answers that really were thought-provoking. I also had my opinions confirmed on several posters, though I scarcely needed more evidence on that account. These threads are of great value, no matter what your opinion of me may be, if you set aside your desire to jump in and tell me how I am wrong (though I didn’t offer an opinion of my own in this one) and use them as a tool to view how dopers view themselves. For the loudest and angriest among you, there is a Pit thread about me that has been going on for some time. You should consider spending more of your energy in it and less spastically flailing in threads like this one when you know I won’t reply to your off-topic frothings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/51 "2019-09-05T16:53:29Z")
So…nothing specific to say about your own views on the matter? Personally, I’m pro-choice because of reasons already stated(the rights of women to control their own destinies, the lies told by so-called “Pregnancy Centers” and those that support them, the demand that women give birth no matter how viable the pregnancy is etc.) Edited to add: Would you mind pointing out the “loudest and angriest” posts? I wouldn’t mind knowing where that bar is set. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/52 "2019-09-05T17:17:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So…nothing specific to say about your own views on the matter? > Personally, I’m pro-choice because of reasons already stated(the rights of women to control their own destinies, the lies told by so-called “Pregnancy Centers” and those that support them, the demand that women give birth no matter how viable the pregnancy is etc.) > Edited to add: Would you mind pointing out the “loudest and angriest” posts? I wouldn’t mind knowing where that bar is set. That Pit thread is still there, me ol’ china. Hie thee there and bitch about me in your shrillest tones. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/53 "2019-09-05T17:21:30Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That Pit thread is still there, me ol’ china. Hie thee there and bitch about me in your shrillest tones. No bitching(shrill or otherwise) from my side of the aisle. I’m just asking for clarification of your previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/54 "2019-09-05T17:37:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In this thread, and its predecessor, I have learned some valuable things about dopers who I never really noticed before. I have as well. I shall be altering my viewing habits accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/55 "2019-09-05T17:42:57Z")
I’m pro-choice because I try to be a decent person. It’s not easy, but it’s simple. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/56 "2019-09-05T18:02:33Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > No, whether something is murder or not is determined by whether or not the being that was killed was human and that it was committed in a premeditated fashion. There is no morality influencing those facts. Are you saying our laws are dictated and shaped by moral judgments? Or just abortion law? I disagree. Saying that John Smith is dead is a matter of objective fact. Saying that Smith’s death was caused by a gunshot is a matter of objective fact. Saying that Bob Jones shot Smith is a matter of objective fact (although there may be a dispute because of incomplete information). But saying that Jones murdered Smith is a subjective moral issue. Jones may have murdered Smith. Or he may have defending himself by shooting Smith. Or he may have committed an act of war. Or he may have shot Smith by an unforeseeable accident. The determination of which of these situations occurred is a moral decision. The law is just a codified expression of our moral consensus. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/57 "2019-09-05T18:11:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But saying that Jones murdered Smith is a subjective moral issue. Jones may have murdered Smith. Or he may have defending himself by shooting Smith. Or he may have committed an act of war. Or he may have shot Smith by an unforeseeable accident. The determination of which of these situations occurred is a moral decision. The law is just a codified expression of our moral consensus. Er, these are all questions of objective fact too. A guy was either defending himself or he wasn’t, and deciding that is a determination of fact. This determination may be influenced by _opinion_, but the opinions in question aren’t opinions about morality, they’re opinions about the facts. Similarly, the question of whether a killing was justified/allowed by the rules of war is a question of fact, the question of whether it was an accident is a question of fact, and the question of whether the thingy in the woman’s tummy is a human yet is a question of fact. One that can come down to opinion, but it’s still a question of fact. Honestly, the closest that laws come to morality is whether a given law should exist at all. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/58 "2019-09-05T18:20:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No bitching(shrill or otherwise) from my side of the aisle. I’m just asking for clarification of your previous post. You know what else I learned from these threads? That you, apparently, think everything really is about you. From your responses, one might gain the impression that I started these threads just to troll you because reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/59 "2019-09-05T18:29:01Z")
I’m can’t say that people are pro-choice because they are smart, but this thread indicates that a lot of thought was put into the decision by most here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/60 "2019-09-05T18:30:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You know what else I learned from these threads? That you, apparently, think everything really is about you. From your responses, one might gain the impression that I started these threads just to troll you because reasons. And I’m learning that your approach to life is to refuse to answer reasonable questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650.md?page=4)