# Are you pro-choice because you are smart? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 3, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650 "2019-09-03T23:42:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/81 "2019-09-05T23:01:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > All of which is arguably, dare I say it, kinda dumb by the standards of rational argument. I actually have a certain amount of sympathy for approach 2; I myself haven’t gone to the trouble of determining exactly when sentience begins. I just say ‘screw it’ from the other direction - with the knowledge that abortion (especially when it’s legal) will tend towards happening early in the pregnancy anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/82 "2019-09-05T23:14:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh, I recognize this part: this is where you ask an apparently serious question that I’ll reply to in good faith, at which point you’ll just duck out of the exchange with a sneering obscene suggestion. No thanks, not again. Get yourself three 4 Lokos and a tube of Astroglide as you celebrate you driving me from the field in disarray. And be sure to give Fenris a handy-J. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/83 "2019-09-05T23:20:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh, I recognize this part: this is where you ask an apparently serious question that I’ll reply to in good faith, at which point you’ll just duck out of the exchange with a sneering obscene suggestion. No thanks, not again. You nailed the sneering obscene suggestion, but did you seriously think he was going to ‘duck out’? Before getting in the last word? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/84 "2019-09-05T23:21:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Honestly, the closest that laws come to morality is whether a given law should exist at all. Well, yes, obviously. The whole point of the law is about morality. That’s what I said; the law is our consensus about what’s moral. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/85 "2019-09-05T23:25:03Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The thing is, the pro-life side don’t see it as a moral view or question of any sort- it’s as absolute as you describe up top about cannibalism or murder. You missed the point I made. I didn’t say pro-life people (or pro-choice people) are uncertain about their own view on the subject. I said they’re aware that there are people who disagree with their opinion. Do you feel the people who are opposed to cannibalism have to spend a lot of time arguing with the people who are in favor of cannibalism? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/86 "2019-09-05T23:25:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, yes, obviously. The whole point of the law is about morality. That’s what I said; the law is our consensus about what’s moral. Actually about four fifths\* of the time it’s about what’s convenient for society as a whole. Traffic laws, tax laws, contract laws, zoning laws… \*estimated ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/87 "2019-09-05T23:25:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …the anti-abortion crusade among religious conservatives was [largely an artificial issue deliberately chosen to provide some conservative partisan “red meat” after pro-segregation positions became socially unacceptable](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133), and a lot of dumb people swallowed it hook, line and sinker. This view requires believing that conservatives in the past had an overwhelmingly tolerant position on abortion, that religious views cannot evolve\* over time, and that anti-abortion rights activism was borne of cynical manipulation rather than sincerely held views. I would instead argue that anti-abortion rights folk come by their views honestly (even though often using dishonest means to promote them) and that it does no good to simplistically present the opposition as evil instead of wrong. \*Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/88 "2019-09-05T23:30:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This view requires believing that conservatives in the past had an overwhelmingly tolerant position on abortion, that religious views cannot evolve\* over time, and that anti-abortion rights activism was borne of cynical manipulation rather than sincerely held views. So whaddaya think of that cite in the post you quoted? Lies, damned lies, or statistics? > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I would instead argue that anti-abortion rights folk come by their views honestly (even though often using dishonest means to promote them) and that it does no good to simplistically present the opposition as evil instead of wrong. I think the vast majority of anti-abortion rights folks got told what to think by somebody else. Which isn’t actually an uncommon way to come upon _any_ opinion or belief. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/89 "2019-09-06T00:53:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You nailed the sneering obscene suggestion, but did you seriously think he was going to ‘duck out’? Before getting in the last word? Nah, but at least this way I don’t waste time making good-faith replies to his set-up questions **before** he comes back with the sneering obscene suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/90 "2019-09-06T01:00:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This view requires believing that conservatives in the past had an overwhelmingly tolerant position on abortion, that religious views cannot evolve\* over time, and that anti-abortion rights activism was borne of cynical manipulation rather than sincerely held views. Well, as that linked article demonstrates, it’s definitely true that conservatives in the past had a more tolerant position on abortion than they do nowadays, and that much of the shift in conservative attitudes on abortion was prompted by cynical manipulation from leaders seeking a hot-button issue around which to rally their “moral majority” in pursuit of political power. None of that is incompatible with sincerely held views on the part of anti-abortion conservatives. I’m not arguing that their views on abortion couldn’t evolve; I’m just mentioning the extent to which the shift in their views was, so to speak, directed evolution. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > it does no good to simplistically present the opposition as evil instead of wrong. Not seeing anyplace in this thread where I’ve done that, tbh. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/91 "2019-09-06T01:34:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I would instead argue that anti-abortion rights folk come by their views honestly (even though often using dishonest means to promote them) and that it does no good to simplistically present the opposition as evil instead of wrong. That merely amounts to calling them stupid or insane. It’s accusing them of being so stupid they don’t see the logical flaws and inconsistencies in their position and behavior, or so irrational that they are incapable of reason. And it does plenty of good to look at your opponents as “evil” when they _are,_ since pretending malignant opponents are well meaning but wrong merely means you are blindsided when they act out of malice. It’s the attitude that has led the Democrats to attempt decades of futile compromise with the Republicans, for example. And relevant to this issue, led people to largely look the other way while the so-called pro-life side engages in threats, lies, violence, sexual assault and false imprisonment because looking at them as they actually are leads inevitably to the conclusion that they are not well meaning in any way. When refusing to admit to the evil of an opponent means you have to retreat into a fantasy world, there’s nothing good about that. And insisting that people are _never evil no matter what_ is extremely simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/92 "2019-09-06T16:01:42Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > No, whether something is murder or not is determined by whether or not the being that was killed was human and that it was committed in a premeditated fashion. There is no morality influencing those facts. Are you saying our laws are dictated and shaped by moral judgments? Or just abortion law? This is what I was responding to. I was giving additional examples of things that are not murder merely because they are premeditated acts on a human. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/93 "2019-09-06T16:14:53Z")
I’m Pro Choice because I believe in the right of a woman to control her own reproductive processes. Women have been controlled and oppressed by men since the dawn of human history. I believe that has to end. I do believe this requires a level of intelligence and education that would probably fit your concept of “smart”. It’s apparent, at least to me, that anyone who would oppress and even imprison a woman on behalf of a cluster of cells but, yet, would imprison children in cages, let people die for lack of health care, and start wars that kill many people for the sake of profit are either the dumbest fucking assholes in the world or the biggest, most evil hypocrites in the world. You choose. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/94 "2019-09-06T16:32:16Z")
**Moderator Warning** > [@Scumpup](#): > > Get yourself three 4 Lokos and a tube of Astroglide as you celebrate you driving me from the field in disarray. And be sure to give Fenris a handy-J. This is an official warning for Pit-style and inappropriate sexual comments in MPSIMS. Take it to the Pit next time. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/95 "2019-09-06T16:35:30Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Kimstu](#): > > Nah, but at least this way I don’t waste time making good-faith replies to his set-up questions **before** he comes back with the sneering obscene suggestion. This is not the only example in this thread, but let’s stop all of the snipping at other users and focus on the actual topic. If you have a problem with a user, take it to the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650/96 "2019-09-07T01:10:10Z")
Moderating: the OP has hopelessly poisoned this thread. Now that he has been suspended I am going to close this. For those of you that thoughtfully answered you can open another uncontaminated thread to continue if you wish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-pro-choice-because-you-are-smart/839650.md?page=4)