Are you ready for $10/Gallon gas and long lines at the pump?

The BBQ Pit
261

To be honest, I think he’s got a good point…

Your freedom to swing your arms ends at my face. In other words, most Americans would agree that our freedoms have to be limited to those that don’t negatively affect the rest of us. It’s called an externality, I’m sure you economic types would remember.

You driving your massive H1 to and from work has loads of externalities. Now if we were to somehow figure out a way for you to pay for those too, then I would say have at it. But oil is a limited resource. Once we realize that we are going to run out one day, then your usage seems inconsiderate to the rest of the country. You’re using more than your fair share because you don’t care enough about the rest of the nation / planet.

That’s what pisses me off about the scenario. You don’t need the H1. And really it’s affects me too, because you sure as hell aren’t the only one driving a car that’s probably twice as inefficient as one you could get by with. All of these huge SUVs…How many are really necessary? I realize they’ve been toned down a bit, but the more oil you burn uselessly drives the prices up for me.

So really, I consider this kind of “freedom” just juvenile behavior. It’s ridiculous to think that your actions don’t have negative effects on people around you. If you then say, “well fuck them, I can do it so I will” then you are essentially taking on the attitude of a petulant child.

Which really explains American attitude quite well really. To think that we can do whatever we want with no consequences is absurd! Our chickens are coming home to roost now with this 4 dollar a gallon gas. We think we can go around with our gas guzzling SUVs and our wasteful lifestyle because we can afford it? It’s simply childish to think that nothing bad will happen because of it. Sometimes it’s important to listen to your colleagues (in this case, other nations) and not tell them to fuck off because you can. We won’t always be able to do that, btw.

So you can go out there and build your 5000 sq foot house and sodomize pigs in there for all I care, but don’t think that you have the right to hog a precious resource that everyone depends on for survival. The other countries look down on us for that because they don’t have a culture of excess. It’s bizarre to them, let me tell you.

262

Pervasive throughout this thread seems to be the assumption that Americans only use their cars more because of the lack of public transportation. This seems false to me.

I’m an European living in Chapel Hill, NC. Actually, I live a pleasant 1.5 mile walk away from CH, in nearby Carrboro. The walk takes about 30min, biking takes 5-10, driving (including parking) 10-15 and the excellent, comprehensive free bus services 10-15 including a wait.

People drive a ridiculous amount here. Several of my university-mates spend hundreds of dollars a month in petrol and parking to get into CH, ignoring the free buses. It’s not just that my USian friends choose not to walk into CH, it’s that they are shocked that I would do such a thing every day. And then they complain about high petrol prices!

There is a Wendy’s about a 5 min walk or 2-3 min (stressful) drive including parking from my house. My housemates always drive there! It’s absurd.

I fully support their right to do this if they want (particularly if the externalities can be taxed), and I do recognise the Triangle is a bit of a special case, but let’s not pretend Americans don’t drive an awful lot, by choice.

More broadly, the Triangle has an airport. This airport is almost impossible to reach except by car. The whole area is simply perfectfor light rail. As a non-voter I didn’t follow the issues to closely, but there was a referendum on a tax rise the other month to support transport improvements like light rail… massively rejected.

The tragedy is, that the Triangle has the kind of population structure that would be great for such a rail project. But people just won’t go for it.

Fine - do what you like. Vote against rail lines. But then shut the fuck up about gas prices!

263

Jesus H. Christ.

CNN has a “Special Investigation” on now, trying to figure out the reason for high gas prices…

So far here are the topics:

emphasis theirs
A huge oil field that’s been discovered (we’ll tell you where!)
Possibly that speculation is responsible! :gasp:
Tips on how to save gas (first sane thing)

Here’s a clue:
Oil is finite. There’s a limited supply. Demand is higher than it has ever been. Demand is not going to ever go down. That means prices will rise and never go down. “This can’t just be supply and demand” says the CNN guy. Yes it can.

I seriously wish that people could understand…It ends here. It may give a lot of pleasure to a bunch of smug assholes that don’t approve of the way we do things, but ignoring reality isn’t going to help.

264

See, now I thought that rising gas prices were as sure a thing as rising home heating fuel costs, rising clean water costs, rising electricity costs, etc, etc.

I mean they all seem a certainty to me, sort of like, “Tomorrow, the sun will rise.”

And, while Americans love someone to blame in times of crisis (preferably someone off shore), I seriously believed that most were smart enough to understand why it must be so.

Because it is the only way to get wasteful and entitled North Americans to choose to downsize their lifestyles. You see the evidence in this thread, of the attitude they are up against in creating any sort of meaningful change.
They **are **free to drive hummers and build 5000 square foot homes, and they cherish their freedom. What has to happen is a change in attitude to conspicuous consumption and waste in all it’s forms. The shift from justifying your attitude/consumption/lifestyle to making hard choices to create change cannot succeed if imposed by outside powers. It has to be generated from within for it to have any hope of making a difference.

You gotta hit 'em where they live, in their pocket books. Yeah, it sucks and it’s going to hurt. But it’s going to happen.

A little while ago there was a thread about air conditioning and how people felt about it. There was lots of opinions, as you can imagine, I’m sure. What was interesting was the number of (North Americans) people announcing they “couldn’t get by without it” because where they live is in Arizona, or Louisiana, or some other totally hot place. I chuckled at it when I was reading it and thought, to myself, “How very North American, indeed!” Can’t you just see them telling their story to the millions living in Mumbai, or in Africa or most of SE Asia? How do they live there?
They suck it up is how.

God help us all if development means every Indian one day thinks they “couldn’t get by” without air conditioning.

265

They don’t always suck it up. The wife and I blast the air-con here, because it’s FUCKING HOT. But even we don’t keep it as Arctic as your average bank, cinema, shopping center etc. Inside Bangkok anyway, it’s the very poorest who don’t have air-con. Take a stroll through Khlong Toey, the biggest of Bangkok’s slums (50,000+ population the last I heard), and there’s quite a few air-cons even there. You think blasting the air-con is very North American? I know so many Thais who can’t get along without it.

266

And it isn’t as if there aren’t many, many heat-related deaths here in the US (and elsewhere, I’m quite sure) every Summer amongst mostly older, poor people that don’t have A/C. It’s the exact reason cities here set up “cooling centers” for the homeless, et al.

Yeah, I’m an air-conditioned gypsy to borrow a phrase, but I am truly VERY uncomfortable without it.

You see, I’m Irish by genetic makeup, and the climate in Ireland isn’t excrutiatingly hot and humid like here in SE Indiana in the Summer.

Humid weather slays me, but alternately, I am actually quite fond of winter weather. Cold air to me is bracing and acceptable, I rarely bundle up except in very cold temperatures. My body tells me “I suffer in heat (while others are OK in it) and I like colder weather (while others suffer in it)”.

As for conspicuous consumption, I have to grudgingly agree that there’s an aura of entitlement that surrounds SOME Americans, and yes, I agree that whooshing around in oversized vehicles just because you can without an actual need for such a vehicle is wasteful, but indeed within your rights.

But you can’t sell me on the fact that very rich people (and there are a lot in America, too many, some argue) anywhere inthe world don’t share such senses of entitlement. It may not manifest itself in the driving of an H1, but in other ways. Think of Britain’s Royal Family. Or the House Of Saud. And many other examples. This is certainly not unique behavior, nor restricted to Americans.

You know what the *real problem * is with Americans in this regard? Financial wannabees. People that max themselves out on credit to try to float a “perceived lifestyle” that they “deserve”. THOSE people are the assholes. If you can’t afford it, don’t buy it and save some of your money for a rainy day and/or retirement, or your kid’s college, or something!

And the irony is that many of these people earn great salaries that would make most of the world jealous and cannot manage to save and try to project an image that they have more money than they really do. Fucking idiots.

267

Seriously, enough with the lionizing of the poor because they “suck it up.” If they could afford it, they’d be consuming just as much as we do. If you think America is the boogeyman here, consider the rising middle class in China and their ever-increasing use of cars and therefore gasoline.

268

What is it you’re whining about again, exactly?

269

I don’t think that’s entirely true. There are many folks that came from nothing that make themselves financially secure in an amazingly short time and don’t necessarily revel in it nor ramp up their consumption of energy just to be like everyone else on their financial plateau.

But I agree that America isn’t necessarily the Boogeyman here. Heck, if you think about it, the way our country came about in the 20th century as being built around the automobile and the “cheap gas forever” mindset of the 1960’s, there’s where you’ll find issues. America IS fucking big, with a lot of people living all over the place, and people that decry the lack of public transportation aren’t being honest with themselves. Sure, we should and could have more of it, but we’ll likely NEVER have something that services every white picket fence town in America, like you see in Europe. NEVER.

Rail towns grew up around train lines in the 19th century, there are now too many towns to build rail lines for, nor do such towns have taxis available on the level that European or bigger metro areas in the USA do, nor bus service.
There is literally no other way to get around if you live in a remote area in the USA than to drive, it’s the way we’re set up, especially if your job requires a long commute into a metro or metro-ish area.

Believe me, I wish we had public transit on the level I enjoyed while in Germany in the US Army. It was great, then I realized that germany is the size of Oregon.

270

I don’t dispute that many Thais and Indians have air conditioning, certainly in the metropolises, it’s true. But that doesn’t change that in most of these countries, outside of the cities most people don’t. They suck it up because they have no other choice.

As did all of the generations before us and before our grandparents. Somehow they got by. I’m just saying it is possible, look around Africa and Central America, SE Asia etc. No air con in most places and yet they all, ‘live without it.’

FoieGrasIsEvil (sorry buddy) is making my point for me really. I’m just saying most people in the west are more interested in defending their lifestyle rather than changing it. That the Queen of England or the Saudi royals live large is really beside the point. There will always be wealthy people who live large because they can afford to, that’s never going to change. But for the rest of us, change has to come, anyone can see that.

But that change won’t be easy to come to in the West. They are ‘free’ countries who won’t tolerate an authoritarian government foisting even necessary change upon them. And reason isn’t going to work, as you can see clearly in this thread. Not with a populace that feels so entitled and more interested in justifying their consumption than changing it.

What does that leave? That leaves financial pressure. Think about it, it’s the only thing that will make the west change it’s attitude, in my opinion. When people have to choose between affording a college education for their child or running a second car they’ll make do with one car. When people have to choose between running the air conditioning and putting meat on the table they’ll get used to the heat. They will find a way.

Think about how we’ve exported western culture to the whole world and try to understand the impact on the planet as India and China adopt our two car and central air ways. It cannot hold, something has to give. Change must come.

But change in India and China can come down from the government in one sweeping decree and the populace has little recourse but to abide. That won’t work in the west.

Which brings me back to hitting them where they live, in the pocket book. Is it fair? Probably not. Will it hurt the poor the most? Absolutely. But I can’t see any other way to get North Americans to accept sacrificing lifestyle in the name of conservation.

271

Reading some of this shit, you really have to wonder whether the average American could be considered a “rational economic actor” who responds to the forces of supply and demand.

Article for your consideration

Another one here

For you confused Europeans, a Ford F-350 is a solid live axle leaf spring rear suspension truck that sits 2 meters tall, with a curb weight of 2,750 kg, a 6 litre V8 diesel engine and a tow capacity of over 5,000kg, i.e. about 2x that of the largest non-commercial vehicle (Toyota Landcruiser or Nissan Patrol) sold anywhere else in the world, even Australia. Here in my town it is not uncommon for typical cubicle workers downtown to drive these things to work.

Reading these articles is sort of like reading about those 600lb morbidly obese people who are trapped in their beds.

272

I’m reminded now of an area of Mae Hong Son province, in the North, that was without electricity when I was living up there back in the '80s. I lived in the provincial capital, which had electricity (I didn’t have air-con then myself, though, actually, just a fan), but I had occasion to be in that area of no electricity much of the time. It was about 1990 when electricity finally began arriving. The one road leading into that area became choked with residents trekking into the provincial capital or even Chiang Mai, the capital of the North, for every type of electrical appliance you could imagine – air-cons, freezers, TVs, you name it. And they only had electricity for maybe four hours a fay at first; what good is a freezer going to do you four hours a day? It’s around-the-clock now anyway.

In the Northeast especially, this remains a big incentive for families to push their daughters into marrying a “wealthy” Westerner, so they can get all of these goodies, too.

273

Well Siam Sam, I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. I was also in Mae Hong Son in the eighties and saw what you saw, but how does it pertain to this discussion of $10 a gallon for gasoline?

274

Got wrapped up with air-cons somehow.

Gas is approaching the equivalent of US$5 a gallon here. That’s starting to put a squeeze on many.