# are you really think that Confucius and his Analects is right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006 "2011-06-10T18:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![uoadgx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/49beb7/32.png) [@uoadgx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uoadgx2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/1 "2011-06-10T18:21:49Z")
you can see ,my english is real shit. i am a real chinese . when BETWEEN the 2008 olympics game.our chinese news will say something like 5000 years history so great ,Confucius and his Analects. but it is really dark in recently 500 years in china. it is hardly relate this Confucius’s Analects .in fact his analects always bring society go to corruption I Swear TO YOUR GOD .i’m saying the truth. are you western hemisphere people really think Confucius is a SAGE OR SAINT? if you really think he is a saint ,Forget I even spoke. i still want to tell you , belive his RU is dangerous. it connote many dark things,in the chinese original text .not translation version. it really did very dark history with china. It’s over ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/2 "2011-06-10T18:29:04Z")
From my limited understanding of Confucianism, its precepts of blind obedience to one’s elders and superiors are good for societal order, and ridiculously bad for innovation. So personally I think he was a sage _of his time_ but in no means a saint. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/3 "2011-06-10T19:39:02Z")
It is my understanding that Confucius praised and advocated an extremely rigid feudalistic social structure, in which the serf majority should (as **jjimm** says) blindly obey their elders and anyone else higher up in society. In other words, he was basically a Republican, so you probably won’t find many people arguing in his favor in this forum. (What? It’s in Elections, so I have to needle at least one of the current political parties. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/4 "2011-06-10T19:41:39Z")
I don’t think anyone here views Confuscius as a saint. There are people here who view him as a sage, but that can be said about almost anyone who has ever made public statements. There is a wide assortments of opinion among Americans, and many, many of us are stupid. Even more of us are poorly informed. I don’t know much about Chinese history. What little I do know suggests that historically Chinese governments have viewed stability and order as the most important things to pursue. This does not necessarily mean things are good for any given individual, but considering what terrible things can happen when there is instability and disorder, it is not a completely ridiculous viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/5 "2011-06-10T19:54:09Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > It is my understanding that Confucius praised and advocated an extremely rigid feudalistic social structure, in which the serf majority should (as **jjimm** says) blindly obey their elders and anyone else higher up in society. > > In other words, he was basically a Republican, so you probably won’t find many people arguing in his favor in this forum. (What? It’s in Elections, so I have to needle at least one of the current political parties. 😉 ) This is true, even though it is said jokingly. There are many people who value maintaining the established order far more than the welfare of any particular individual. Here in the U.S., it is almost a rule that the more a politician claims to value freedom, the more he really wants to wants to prevent the freedom of anyone who doesn’t share his viewpoints. Throughout the entire world, you will find that most governments have been maintained on behalf of the governors, not the people governed. People who have power want to keep it. They will find justifications for doing so. Sometimes it’s religion, sometimes it’s ideology, sometimes it’s something else. BUT that doesn’t mean that stability is worthless. People in countries with little or no effective government are generally not better off than people in countries with lots of government. The very wealthy people may be better off, because they can buy most of what governments provide for themselves, but the poor can suffer terribly. Corruption happens. It didn’t start because of Confucius, and it won’t end after Confucius is forgotten. All we can do is try to prevent it from happening, and expose and punish it when it does. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/6 "2011-06-10T20:04:38Z")
Unless this has some relevance to elections, this probably belongs in our Great Debates forum, not here. I’ll ask the moderators to move it for you. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/7 "2011-06-10T22:43:03Z")
> [@uoadgx2](#): > > are you western hemisphere people really think Confucius is a SAGE OR SAINT? In all honesty - most people in the Western Hemisphere don’t think about Confucius at all. If you asked everyone you met on the street, most people would say he was the man who said the cute sayings in fortune cookies. I personally wouldn’t say he was unimportant. But his philosophy is so different than western ideas that it’s not taught or even really discussed much here. As for corruption … well, it seems like every system becomes corrupt over time. People start out with good plans for a system and then corrupt people discover ways to break the system for their own benefit. Confucianism doesn’t seem more corrupt than other systems. But it was developed to address problems in a feudal society. Today we live in a different society, with different problems. We need new systems to address our new current problems. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/8 "2011-06-10T23:42:08Z")
He was wise, a genuine idealist and a believer in order but Mo-Tze was better. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/9 "2011-06-11T00:34:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He was wise, a genuine idealist and a believer in order but Mo-Tze was better. I agree. However, I’m annoyed by the notions presented here. It’s obvious that most responders didn’t, err, have any idea what Confucius said. The short version is that Confucius\* was very much a teacher emphasizing personal moral correctness and harmony, and did not really say much about political tradition. T the extent it impacted his philosophy, he ared about loyalty to correct bodies. And in fact, in nature he seems to have been an optimist, implying that humans would tend towards good if the governemnt was good. Therefore, the government’s highest priority was to be morally upright itself. \*Well, Kong Fu-Tze, more or less. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/10 "2011-06-11T01:20:36Z")
Confucius didn’t emphasize blind obedience. His philosophy was based on the idea of relationships between people. He felt that there was a relationship between every pair of people based on their relative status and there were principles for how the relationship should work. But it was a two-way obligation. Both people in the relationship had duties to the other. His overall philosophy could best be described as “everyone benefits when we all do what we’re supposed to do.” ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/11 "2011-06-11T09:12:41Z")
Most Americans know very little about him, as his views have not taken root here. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/12 "2011-06-11T09:24:36Z")
{Never mind. The cruddy fall-out of his philosophy doesn’t have anything to do with this thread.} ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/13 "2011-06-11T10:18:46Z")
> [@uoadgx2](#): > > our chinese news will say something > like 5000 years history so great IS. IS so great. Say your _goddamn transitive verbs!_ Sorry, couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/14 "2011-06-11T18:02:49Z")
uoadgx2, to explain: Confucius isn’t very well known in the west, and his philosophy isnt’ very well respected, either. Westerners look to Plato or Aristotle, and the great Christian leaders, not Confucius. In fact, he is mostly known for a series of jokes. People who know much about him have usually studied East Asian history, or lots of world philosophers. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/15 "2011-06-11T18:18:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Confucius didn’t emphasize blind obedience. His philosophy was based on the idea of relationships between people. He felt that there was a relationship between every pair of people based on their relative status and there were principles for how the relationship should work. But it was a two-way obligation. Both people in the relationship had duties to the other. > > His overall philosophy could best be described as “everyone benefits when we all do what we’re supposed to do.” By contrast, in the modern West the trend is to pretend that everyone’s the same status (an example would be Silicon Valley companies where the CEO doesn’t have his own office, or superiors and inferiors being on a first-name basis). At the same time, of course, everyone _is_ subtly status jockeying, and there’s no longer a sense of moral obligation from the winners to the losers - precisely because we got rid of lots of obvious signs of status. So even though we look more egalitarian, there aren’t as many social limitations on what rich, powerful, or popular folks can get away with. Contrast this to Confucianism, which says _of course_ there’s status inequality in the world, now let’s codify it and _link it to obligations towards your inferiors_. As a way to restrict the caprice of the powerful it has a lot in common with the old Western idea of _noblesse oblige_ - the personal obligations of the powerful to the weak. ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/16 "2011-06-11T18:25:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He was wise, a genuine idealist and a believer in order but Mo-Tze was better. No love for [Han Fei Tzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei_Tzu), **Qin**? To echo what a lot of other people said, Confucius is not well known in the West, he had a lot of pretty good ideas, and the society that people based on his writings (centuries after his own time) had a pretty good track record when compared to other societies of the same time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/17 "2011-06-11T18:29:50Z")
Confucius say: Americans have very superficial understanding of Chinese history (in bed). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/18 "2011-06-11T20:14:28Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > He was wise, a genuine idealist and a believer in order but Mo-Tze was better. > > No love for [Han Fei Tzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Fei_Tzu), **Qin**? Something tells me I’m the only [Xun Zi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xun_Zi) fan hereabouts… ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/19 "2011-06-11T22:49:44Z")
Nah, [Zhuangzi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuangzi) was the man! **uoadgx2** , I think Confucius is respected in the West only inasmuch as he is known to have been a very important, perhaps the most important, intellectual influence on Chinese culture, thought and history. As such, his thought certainly deserves to be taken seriously in the West, even though it has had very little direct influence on Western culture, thought or history. As to whether his influence has ultimately been for good or ill (on China or on the rest of the world), that can probably be judged much better by Chinese people such as yourself than it can be by almost any Westerner. Clearly you think his influence has mainly been bad, but I am sure (and I am sure you know) that very many Chinese people would think otherwise. I doubt whether the debate in China over whether his influence is good or bad is much affected (or should be much affected) by what Westerners think (and, most Westerners, in fact do not have much opinion on the matter). I am rather inclined to think that you are right, but I am very aware that I have very little basis for that feeling. I simply do not know enough about China to have a valid opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006/20 "2011-06-11T23:49:37Z")
> [@uoadgx2](#): > > Confucius’s Analects .in fact his analects always bring society go to corruption It is true that the Confucian government of the late-Ching-Dynasty China of the 19th Century was broadly and deeply corrupt. I don’t know about earlier examples, nor whether the situation was in any way related to Confucian doctrine. As I understand it, the point of the [Imperial Examination system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination) was to produce a bureaucracy of men who had completely internalized the Confucian values and ethics, including public service and virtue and stuff. Though there were other purposes: > [@](#): > > In late imperial China, the examination system and associated methods of recruitment to the central bureaucracy were major mechanisms by which the central government captured and held the loyalty of local-level elites. Their loyalty, in turn, ensured the integration of the Chinese state, and countered tendencies toward regional autonomy and the breakup of the centralized system. The examination system distributed its prizes according to provincial and prefectural quotas, which meant that imperial officials were recruited from the whole country, in numbers roughly proportional to each province’s population. Elite individuals all over China, even in the disadvantaged peripheral regions, had a chance at succeeding in the examinations and achieving the rewards and emoluments office brought. > > The examination system also served to maintain cultural unity and consensus on basic values. The uniformity of the content of the examinations meant that the local elites and ambitious would-be members of those elites across the whole of China were taught with the same values. Even though only a small fraction (about 5 percent) of those who attempted the examinations passed them and received titles, the studying and the hope of eventual success on a subsequent examination served to sustain the interest of those who took them. Those who failed to pass—most of the candidates at any single examination—did not lose wealth or local social standing; as dedicated believers in Confucian orthodoxy, they served, without the benefit of state appointments, as teachers, patrons of the arts, and managers of local projects, such as irrigation works, schools, or charitable foundations. > > In late traditional China, education was valued in part because of its possible pay-off in the examination system. The overall result of the examination system and its associated study was cultural uniformity—identification of the educated with national rather than regional goals and values. This self-conscious national identity still underlies the nationalism that has been so important in China’s politics in the 20th and 21st centuries,[citation needed] though it is based on different criteria. Recently I read the whole series of [Judge Dee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Dee) novels (set in the Tang Dynasty, purportedly-by-internal-narrative written as historical novels during the Ming which accounts for certain anachronisms) by Robert van Gulik. Dee is the ideal of what the system is **supposed** to produce. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-really-think-that-confucius-and-his-analects-is-right/585006.md?page=2)