# Are You Still SURE There's No Iraq- al Qaida Connection? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2004, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599 "2004-02-28T07:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/21 "2004-03-04T01:35:46Z")
[http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8089829.htm](http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/8089829.htm) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - The Bush administration’s claim that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida - one of the administration’s central arguments for a pre-emptive war - appears to have been based on even less solid intelligence than the administration’s claims that Iraq had hidden stocks of chemical and biological weapons. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/22 "2004-03-07T00:02:28Z")
From **samclem** ’s site: > [@](#): > > _03/02/ **04** Knight Ridder Newspapers_ > > …U.S. intelligence community never concluded that those meetings [between Baathis and al Qaeda] produced an **operational relationship** … …in a secret report by the CIA’s Directorate of Intelligence that was updated in January 2003… > Iraqi defectors alleged that Saddam’s regime was helping to train Iraqi and non-Iraqi Arab terrorists at… **Salman Pak** … > The U.S. military has found no evidence of such a facility. > …\*\*Mohamed Atta \*\*… **in Prague** … > **CIA Director George Tenet told the Senate Intelligence Committee _last month_ that there’s no evidence to support the allegation.** I looked into the SSCI hearings last month, but they were all closed. No linkage available yet. **If Tenet’s not having any of it why should I?** A note about some Iraqi defectors: > [@](#): > > \*\*[DoD Weighs Future of Iraqi-Fed Intelligence Unit\*\*](http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/03/16/National/Dod-Weighs.Future.Of.IraqiFed.Intelligence.Unit-626413.shtml) > _Posted March 4, 2004_ > > …an intelligence-collection unit fed by the controversial Iraqi National Congress (INC)… > …the INC’s Information Collection Program (ICP)… > > The New York Sun reported…the CIA is making a bid to [take over management of the INC’s ICP]. > However, a government official told UPI the CIA is not interested, as it and the State Department have long regarded the INC and its controversial leader [Ahmad Chalabi](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3326581#post3326581) – now on the Iraqi Governing Council – with suspicion. > > …\*since the war ended \* the Information Collection Program has proved extremely valuable. > Approximately one-fifth of the verbal debriefings of sources in Iraq are carried out by the ICP… > > Several of the most interesting documents [turned over by the ICP] regarding prewar intelligence and connections between al-Qaeda and Iraq _still_ are being analyzed for authenticity and accuracy. > > “This isn’t to say they [the ICP] aren’t getting some good stuff now, because _it’s being vetted much more carefully as it should have been before_,” a government official told UPI. ---
**Author:** ![Aminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4af34b/32.png) [@Aminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aminal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/23 "2004-03-07T17:01:18Z")
Well, what if Saddam did know about the planned attacks and did nothing because he liked the idea and figured no one would ever call him on it? I think it suffices to say that common sense would tell you he was involved in it someway. What is the deal with all the constant references to all the “oil” we now have? People keep saying the war was for oil, are we shipping it back to the US or something? I have not heard of us “nationalizing” the oil fields. It still belongs to the people of Iraq, last I heard the funds from its sale were being used to rebuild their country. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/24 "2004-03-07T17:09:23Z")
> [@Aminal](#): > > Well, what if Saddam did know about the planned attacks and did nothing because he liked the idea and figured no one would ever call him on it? > I think it suffices to say that common sense would tell you he was involved in it someway. What if we all grew wings and flew to the Moon for a picnic? Also, common sense it seems can tell us whatever we want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/25 "2004-03-07T17:49:34Z")
Don’t be silly, **MC**. There is no atmosphere on the moon, wings would be quite useless. In comparison, **aminal** scenario is much more sensible. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/26 "2004-03-07T18:10:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Don’t be silly, **MC**. There is no atmosphere on the moon, wings would be quite useless. In comparison, **aminal** scenario is much more sensible. The wings could be powered by the solar wind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/27 "2004-03-07T18:17:30Z")
Not if its nightime. ---
**Author:** ![Aminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4af34b/32.png) [@Aminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aminal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/28 "2004-03-07T19:25:32Z")
No, I am being serious here. This is the guy that paid rewards to suicide bombers families on a regular basis, and he certainly has no love for the United States. Can you seriously think that he had no ties whatsoever to terrorist organizations? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/29 "2004-03-07T19:57:06Z")
Welcome **Animal** , at the moment you read like Son of Sam (Stone). Feel free to use the seach function and get up to speed. The question wasn’t about “terrorist organisations” it was about one in particular. And the US has proven no link of any kind at any time. And you can believe they tried rather hard to so do. What evidence we have strongly suggests Saddam and a-Q were effectively at war in the northern no-fly zone in the months before the US-led acquisition. ObL has repeatedly stated he thought Saddam a “bad Muslim”; they were enemies, not friends. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/30 "2004-03-07T19:59:14Z")
And I’m even happier to welcome **Aminal**. Even. ---
**Author:** ![Aminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4af34b/32.png) [@Aminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aminal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/31 "2004-03-07T20:09:46Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > Welcome **Animal** , at the moment you read like Son of Sam (Stone). Feel free to use the seach function and get up to speed. > > The question wasn’t about “terrorist organisations” it was about one in particular. And the US has proven no link of any kind at any time. And you can believe they tried rather hard to so do. > > What evidence we have strongly suggests Saddam and a-Q were effectively at war in the northern no-fly zone in the months before the US-led acquisition. > > ObL has repeatedly stated he thought Saddam a “bad Muslim”; they were enemies, not friends. Thanks for the welcome! I did read the above posts, and I know that there has not been a proven link between Saddam and Al-Q. What I am asking is that isn’t it a reasonable statement that he may have had ties to them that we just do not know about? ---
**Author:** ![jymjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/45deac/32.png) [@jymjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jymjim)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/32 "2004-03-07T20:46:39Z")
It is a possibility of course, but its not going to be backed up by simply saying “well, they are both bad men, and both did bad things, so they probably were bestest mates and planned 911.” is it. FWIW here in the UK there was VERY little speculation regarding any Iraq/911 linkage, apart from some “borrowed” student papers. I was actually suprised to see just how many people were citing this as a reason to invade Iraq at the time, and i only saw that through reading US press and websites etc. I suppose the "reasons to invade iraq! timeline might go like this: (usa)SADDAM DID 911 (uk)SADDAM CAN LAUNCH WMMMDDDDDDD IN 15 MINUTES!!! (usa) what he said ^ (uk)EVEN IF HE DOESNT HAVE WMMDDD, HES A BAAAD MAN mmk! (usa)Right on, lets drop those liberty bombs and free those people! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/33 "2004-03-07T21:22:17Z")
UbL told Iraqis that members of the Iraqi Baathist party were infidels, and thus sentenced to death. Kind of an odd thing for allies to do. I’m sure in UbL’s mind, it was perfectly logical for there to be an alliance between the US and Iraq. **aminal** , The dearth of evidence despite the huge amount of searching, past and present, makes it seem like a less and less reasonable Hussein may have had _ **meaningful and/or "operational"** _ ties to al Qaeda “that we just do not know about.” ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/34 "2004-03-07T22:34:29Z")
**aminal** , the point is that you can say “what if…” until the cows come home, but with a total lack of evidence to back your statement up it’s completely pointless and certainly not enough to retroactively justify a war. Infact a reasonable analysis of the circumstantial evidence shows that it is unlikely Saddam would’ve had foreknowledge of the series of attacks that took place on 11th September 2001 as among al-Qaida’s long enemies list was Saddam’s broadly secularist regime. Also arguing from common sense is a logical fallacy as there is no such thing as common sense’ apart perhaps from what a person may wish to define as common sense. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/35 "2004-05-28T17:18:14Z")
**[[http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/27/100047.shtml](http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/27/100047.shtml)]WSJ: Saddam’s Files Show ‘Direct’ 9/11 Link** Thursday, May 27, 2004 9:53 a.m. EDT Newly uncovered files examined by U.S. military investigators in Baghdad show what is being described as “a direct link” between Saddam Hussein’s elite Fedayeen military unit and the terrorist attacks on America on Sept. 11, 2001. Ahmed Hikmat Shakir, who attended a January 2000 al-Qaida summit in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where the 9/11 attacks were planned, is listed among the officers on three Fedayeen rosters… ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/36 "2004-05-28T19:05:16Z")
[Fixed link.](http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004...0047.shtml) I am going to have to be somewhat skeptical. Check out the Editor’s Note at the bottom of the page. Of course the original story is listed as coming from the Wall Street Journal. Bears further watching. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/37 "2004-05-28T19:21:32Z")
Neither link work for me btw. I’d be interested in reading about it, but am skeptical. Oh, I think there might have been a passing aquaintance between Iraq and AQ, especially Iraqi intellegence (I doubt there was a Saddam link at all), but I don’t think it was well established or very strong. Most likely just each side feeling the other out, and defining some boundaries between them…and perhaps an ad hoc truce while they dealt with more pressing matters. If someone can fix the link, I’d appreciate it as I’m interested to see what it says. -XT ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/38 "2004-05-28T19:44:22Z")
> [@Aminal](#): > > last I heard the funds from its sale were being used to rebuild their country. Hmmm…sell oil - get money - hire US companies to “rebuid” Iraq - pay the money to these comapnies. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/39 "2004-05-28T19:59:12Z")
> **[Newsmax.com - Breaking news from around the globe](https://www.newsmax.com)** > > Newsmax.com reports today’s news headlines, live news stream, news videos from Americans and global readers > seeking the latest in current events, politics, U.S., world news, health, finance, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599/40 "2004-05-28T20:03:44Z")
Ahmed Hikmat Shakir first surfaced in Feith’s 50 point memo of last October. IIRC Ahmed Chalabi supplied much of the information for that attempt to link Saddam and al Qaeda. What’s the source of this new information? Could it have been recovered from the raid on Chalabi’s offices, and if so, how much credibility does it have? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-still-sure-theres-no-iraq-al-qaida-connection/231599.md?page=3)