# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/181 "2012-03-27T18:05:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am talking about someone who initiated the physical confrontation. THAT person, according to the law, does have that requirement. Except if you kill the other person, and the police must accept your story, who would admit to initiating? The logical consequence of this is that any time someone is killed it will turn out that the dead person initiated the conflict. Hell, that is the way is today in areas where the claim that you felt threatened make the cops stop investigating. Who would admit to starting it, even it did meat the all the requirements of self defense at the end. And if there is a supporting witness, they started attacking you too! You were outnumbered, it was kill or be killed! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/182 "2012-03-27T18:06:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The point is that Zimmerman is under no legal obligation to obey the 911 dispatcher and stop following someone. The 911 operator cannot instruct Zimmerman, in the sense of telling him what to do and expecting him to obey. It was still a damn fool thing to do, and completely against standard neighborhood watch procedure. Now, if Trayvon had been carrying a bloody machete and a severed head, maybe immediate action would have been called for. > [@Shodan](#): > > It is not against the law to try to talk to strangers. If you follow me, stop me and demand to know what I’m doing in that neighborhood, I’m really going to be pissed off if you don’t show me a badge. Maybe it’s not against the law to do those things, but common sense ought to tell you such behavior is very offensive and provocative. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/183 "2012-03-27T18:39:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are correct - this is not going to be very popular. Mostly because it is very unfair - why should an innocent person spend months in prison because he or she was attacked? > > Regards, > Shodan In my view, someone who kills someone else isn’t “innocent.” I’m not saying throw the book at someone for ‘self-defense,’ but if someone ends up dead, the result shouldn’t be nothing. And I never said it was ‘fair.’ Getting attacked is very unfair to begin with. Getting shot and killed is unfair. There is a whole world of unfair to deal with. I don’t think there is a single policy that could possibly be absolutely fair. As it is now, when shooting someone your best bet is to shoot to kill so there are no witnesses and no one to contradict your story. That’s very unfair too. Why didn’t the shooter shoot in the leg? Why did the shooting have to be LETHAL? That’s not fair either. My “modest proposal” is to blunt ‘self-defense’ as a justification for homicide; not necessarily eliminate it, but blunt it. “Fair” has little to do with anything when death is involved. In my view, if I’m about to get killed then trading not getting killed for a few months in jail is worth it to me. It isn’t a matter of fair, but if I’m going to kill someone I better have good reason, so much so that I’m willing to go to jail for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/184 "2012-03-27T18:50:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > After ending my telephone conversation with the emergency dispatch operator, I began heading back to my home, where I planned on completing the sweaters I was knitting for orphans in Sudan. It was then that I remembered that my good friend Trayvon was visiting his father, and surely that was the man I saw walking home. Imagine my embarassment! I decided that it wouldn’t be fair to let the police rough up the poor lad, so I turned around to return to the place I last saw him. > > “Excuse me!” I called. “Oh Trayvon! Lovely night isn’t it? Amazing how the moon reflects off the clouds. Say, what have you got there? Skittles? My, I do love me some Skittles. But as you can see, I already possess a character of, how shall we say, rather rotund proportions, so I must not partake. But thank you for your kindly offer. I just wanted to warn you that I made the, gosh, how should I put this, ever so understable mistake of alerting the local constables of a suspicious person in the area. Little did I know at the time, dear friend, that it was merely Mr. Martin, traversing the streets of our fine neighborhood on his return trip from a snack merchant.” > > It was then that things got ugly. Trayvon said that he didn’t think our neighborhood was particularly fine at all. In fact, he said he believed it sucked! Such offensive language from the mouths of babes. I wouldn’t stand idly by while he disparaged our fine community, so I said, “Trayvon, what would your father say if he heard you talking like that? Perhaps we should go tell him now, what do you think?” And Trayvon replied, rather angrily, “Fuck you, spic cracker beaner honkey. I bet you don’t even have the fucking gonads to shoot me point blank in the chest.” > > Well, I was taken aback, to be sure, but I did my best to regain my composure. “Now Trayvon,” I stumbled, but the remainder of my thoughts were soon aswirl in floating stars and tweety birds. As I regained my composure, it become apparent that I had been socked, right in the nose! Well, I had no idea it was to come to fisticuffs, but if he was stewing for a fight, I wasn’t about to go down easy. > > Except that I went down easy. You see, I have a bad knee here, from the time I rescued that family from a burning apartment building. Already bewildered from a shattered nasal bone, I was unable to maintain an upright stature as Trayvon shoved me to the earth. “Trayvon, how could you! We were supposed to go yachting in the Hamptons this summer!” I cried, as my head cracked the pavement. Blow after blow, he rained his rage down on me. I pleaded with him to take mercy, but he was clearly engaged in the recreational use of marijuana. Reefer, as a I believe the negroes like to call it. > > I had nearly lost all hope by the time young Trayvon grabbed the sidearm out of my holster. “Don’t do it!” I screamed, as he held the barrel firmly against his own chest. His last words to me, coldly uttered, were, “You’re going to hang for my death, Jewboy.” And then he closed his eyes and discharged a single round into himself." > > I was beside myself with grief. When the detectives arrived, I couldn’t bear the thought of the Martin family learning that their son had committed suicide. For you see, I’m a devout Catholic, and my religion believes that the souls of those who end their own lives are not destined for eternal rest. So I did the only noble thing I could do in that situation – I took the blame for his death. Oh, forgive me! I could have done so much more to save the life of this troubled youth. Perhaps if I had shared his Skittles after all, none of this would have ever happened. This is absolutely hilarious and pointed and did not get nearly the credit it deserved when you posted it. Nice job. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/185 "2012-03-27T18:59:07Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > If you follow me, stop me and demand to know what I’m doing in that neighborhood, I’m really going to be pissed off if you don’t show me a badge. Maybe it’s not against the law to do those things, but common sense ought to tell you such behavior is very offensive and provocative. I am sure it is. It does not justify assault. And a couple of nitpicks - we do not know for a fact that Zimmerman stopped Martin. And you are under no obligation to answer questions about what you are doing whether or not the asker shows you a badge. Martin was entirely justified in simply ignoring Zimmerman, telling him to go away and mind his own business, or otherwise communicating “go pound sand, Kojak - I’ll walk where I like”. > [@sachertorte](#): > > In my view, someone who kills someone else isn’t “innocent.” I think you are using “innocent” in a different sense than the rest of us. > [@](#): > > And I never said it was ‘fair.’ Getting attacked is very unfair to begin with. Well, that’s certainly true. What you seem to be proposing would make it very much more unfair. > [@](#): > > Getting shot and killed is unfair. Not as far as I can tell. Trying to kill some innocent person and winding up getting killed myself instead strikes me as pretty fair. Come on - if Nicole Brown Simpson had had a handgun, do you think she should have served six month in prison if she put a round between OJ’s beady eyes? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/186 "2012-03-27T19:05:08Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > This is absolutely hilarious and pointed and did not get nearly the credit it deserved when you posted it. Nice job. Aww, shucks. Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/187 "2012-03-27T19:15:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …Come on - if Nicole Brown Simpson had had a handgun, do you think she should have served six month in prison if she put a round between OJ’s beady eyes?.. Of course, if OJ had been the armed neighborhood watchman, he could have simply told the police that Nicole attacked him, sparing us the months and months of media coverage and tax dollars. Yeah, I know, due process and all… While I’m late to this party, and mostly everything has been said, I will add: 1. One side benefit to all this is that I would suspect the number of armed neighborhood watchmen in Florida has been reduced greatly. Florida: Raise your taxes and invest in a professional and diverse police force. This ain’t the fucking wild, wild west. 2. Trayvon is damn cool name. If I ever have another boy, it will be high up on the list of potential names. Of course, I read that Trayvon’s mom is trying to trademark it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/188 "2012-03-27T19:28:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And a couple of nitpicks - we do not know for a fact that Zimmerman stopped Martin. And you are under no obligation to answer questions about what you are doing whether or not the asker shows you a badge. Martin was entirely justified in simply ignoring Zimmerman, telling him to go away and mind his own business, or otherwise communicating “go pound sand, Kojak - I’ll walk where I like”. Which, in all likelihood, is exactly what happened. You think it is less likely that Zimmerman got a little more aggressive? It sure reads to me like Zimmerman was itching for a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/189 "2012-03-27T19:32:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, that’s certainly true. What you seem to be proposing would make it very much more unfair. Possibly. Possibly not. I’m not going to pretend that I know all and see all. My point is for any law, there is a situation that is totally unfair. So it becomes a matter of what we decide we are comfortable with. You object because you envision a victim pure as fresh snow getting attacked by super-baddie and somehow managing to kill super-baddie. In my mind, this is a fiction, or at least very generous with omniscience. The reality is we often don’t know who is innocent and who isn’t (Hence the CURRENT controversy). Obviously, if I had a magic marker that could tell me who is innocent and who is guilty the solution is academic. We don’t have that. > [@](#): > > Not as far as I can tell. Trying to kill some innocent person and winding up getting killed myself instead strikes me as pretty fair. But does that really happen? Or is it all storybook? Projecting what we WANT to happen onto our laws isn’t rational. > [@](#): > > Come on - if Nicole Brown Simpson had had a handgun, do you think she should have served six month in prison if she put a round between OJ’s beady eyes? But that DIDN’T happen. This hypothetical projects something desirable, but that something is fiction. You are also assuming perfect knowledge of what happens and of the reality that would have happened had she not shot him. We don’t live in that fantasy world. From another point of view, don’t you think Nicole Brown Simpson would choose to go to jail for six months over being dead? My point is that in situations where homicide really is justified, the participant is in a situation where he or she is absolutely willing to go to jail for their action. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/190 "2012-03-27T19:42:55Z")
I don’t have a “team”. I have no dog in this fight. I do, however, think it’s odd that someone intent on committing a hate crime would call 911 first so that they could listen in and record the proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/191 "2012-03-27T19:49:26Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I don’t have a “team”. I have no dog in this fight. > > I do, however, think it’s odd that someone intent on committing a hate crime would call 911 first so that they could listen in and record the proceedings. I don’t know, perhaps he called in order to throw enough “reasonable doubt” into the mix. Notice that he didn’t stay on the phone while committing the act. It would be interesting if they could somehow use the 40+ 911 calls that he made previously as proof that this was premeditated. He was just setting himself up legally, knowing that he would eventually murder someone. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/192 "2012-03-27T19:52:55Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > 1. Trayvon is damn cool name. If I ever have another boy, it will be high up on the list of potential names. Of course, I read that Trayvon’s mom is trying to trademark it. It doesn’t matter if it’s being used as a trademark. No one can stop you from naming your kid “Trayvon.” That’s not how trademark law works. It doesn’t give you global control over a word. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/193 "2012-03-27T20:00:50Z")
All I know is that if I shot everyone who ever punched me, I’d be one of the worst mass-murderers in history. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/194 "2012-03-27T20:01:39Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I don’t have a “team”. I have no dog in this fight. > > I do, however, think it’s odd that someone intent on committing a hate crime would call 911 first so that they could listen in and record the proceedings. He wasn’t necessarily contemplating a hate crime. More likely he just thought he could get away with harassing and bullying the kid. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/195 "2012-03-27T20:02:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And a couple of nitpicks - we do not know for a fact that Zimmerman stopped Martin. True. We don’t have any “facts” about what happened between them. We do, however, know that Martin’s girlfriend has said he feared for his life, and was pursued by a stranger. What do you tell your kids to do when they’re being pursued, and are overtaken, by a random stranger? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/196 "2012-03-27T20:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Come on - if Nicole Brown Simpson had had a handgun, do you think she should have served six month in prison if she put a round between OJ’s beady eyes? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] IIRC, O.J. had a knife. Well, technically he didn’t. A court of law found him innocent, therefore if Nicole had shot him it would have been murder since he wasn’t even present. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/197 "2012-03-27T20:12:03Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I don’t have a “team”. I have no dog in this fight. > > I do, however, think it’s odd that someone intent on committing a hate crime would call 911 first so that they could listen in and record the proceedings. No dog, just a whistle? :dubious: I don’t think that Zimmerman went looking for a black kid to kill. (and I think that very few people do) I think that his Batman fantasy spun out of control. I think that the reason that SYG needs to be revoked is that it’s implicit permission for paranoid nutbags to live out their Batman fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/198 "2012-03-27T20:14:00Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > But that DIDN’T happen. This hypothetical projects something desirable, but that something is fiction. You are also assuming perfect knowledge of what happens and of the reality that would have happened had she not shot him. We don’t live in that fantasy world. > > From another point of view, don’t you think Nicole Brown Simpson would choose to go to jail for six months over being dead? My point is that in situations where homicide really is justified, the participant is in a situation where he or she is absolutely willing to go to jail for their action. I find your ideas incontinent and would like to wipe my ass with your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/199 "2012-03-27T20:26:32Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I think that his Batman fantasy spun out of control. Or Rorschach. “Zimmerman’s journal: Another asshole criminal on the street. The cops won’t get here in time. They never do. The city is a prison and the vermin are running the place. But not tonight. Kid doesn’t understand… I’m not locked in here with him. He’s locked in here with ME.” _Zimmerman caresses his gun momentarily then gets out of the truck_ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/200 "2012-03-27T20:39:12Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Which, in all likelihood, is exactly what happened. You think it is less likely that Zimmerman got a little more aggressive? It sure reads to me like Zimmerman was itching for a confrontation. I don’t know what happened. Zimmerman’s story (as far as I can tell, and it isn’t very far) is that Zimmerman went up to Martin and asked him what his business was. Martin reacted by striking him in the face, knocking him down, and slamming his head into the ground. Zimmerman then shot him, once. I believe it’s reasonably well-established what Zimmerman’s injuries were (bloodied nose, cuts to the back of his head), and they are consistent with this story. I do not know what injuries were found on Martin, apart from a single gunshot wound. If he punched Zimmerman, I would expect some grazing to his knuckles. If Martin used the iced tea bottle (or can - I read one account that it was a can), then it is not necessary the case that Martin’s hands would be injured. Although there might be Zimmerman’s blood on the iced tea container. I would also expect that the fatal gunshot wound would be established to have occurred at close range, or perhaps even be a contact wound. I don’t know if that is the case. I think some of the neighbors said they heard someone screaming for help, but it cannot be established if that was Martin or Zimmerman. I believe Martin’s father said originally he couldn’t tell that it was his son, but has since changed his story. FWIW, I believe him the first time, but suspect pressure and wishful thinking are the reason for the change in identification. I believe there has been a good deal of speculation that Zimmerman said either “fucking coons” or “fucking goons” on his 911 call. Or perhaps he said something else, or nothing - I have listened to the recording several times, and I cannot tell what, if anything, is being said. People see different things in Rorschach inkblots, too. Zimmerman told his story several times, and even reenacted it for police. They did not feel it warranted arrest. Now, based (it would seem) on the public outcry, the case has been referred to a grand jury. I very much expect that Zimmerman will be indicted - if a prosecutor can get an indictment of a ham sandwich, I expect he will be able to do so with the villain of the hour in Zimmerman. A conviction? That remains to be seen. I expect the outcry to have largely died away if the trial is more than a few months away, as I expect it to be. The mob has a short memory, and Al Sharpton will find something else to draw attention to himself. But with the presumption of innocence, absent some fact that clearly contradicts Zimmerman’s story, I think the prosecution will have an uphill battle to convict. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=11)