# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/261 "2012-03-28T14:37:55Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > If I knew someone was following me and I also knew that they had a gun, the last thing I would do is try to punch them in the face. Which is why so many of us find Zimmerman’s story to be dubious. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/262 "2012-03-28T14:38:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My impression is that the mainstream media cares very much, since the public is being constantly bombarded with a picture of Martin which makes him look like a sweet innocent 14-year-old boy. (As well as a scowling picture of Zimmerman wearing an orange prison jumpsuit.) > > If instead, the picture was distributed of Martin which makes him look like a Thug-in-Training, do you think Obama would have said what he said about the case? I think you’re a vile piece of shit, as is anyone who thinks that Trayvon Martin’s grill or lack thereof is a valuable piece of information about him. And just in case I was unclear the first time, I really, really hope that you and all your kind have an incredibly unpleasant day, you worthless, racist, ignorant stain upon humanity. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/263 "2012-03-28T14:43:52Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > You must have a vested interest in this “Thug-in-Training” story. Not exactly; I think it’s dishonest to widely distribute a photo which is obviously not recent and which makes him look like a sweet innocent 14-year-old boy. While at the same time distributing a photo of Zimmerman which makes him look like a thug. > [@](#): > > Do you think Thugs-in-Training deserve to be shot walking home from the store or something? Not any more than anyone else. But I think that when a lot of people see the “Hollister” photo of Martin, they subconsciously assume that he could not possibly have done anything to justify his shooting. Let me ask you this: What psychological process do you think has led so many people to believe with a high degree of confidence that Zimmerman is a murder? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/264 "2012-03-28T14:47:59Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I think you’re a vile piece of shit, as is anyone who thinks that Trayvon Martin’s grill or lack thereof is a valuable piece of information about him. Please answer my question: Do you think Obama would have said what he said about the case if the grill or hoodie pics had been widely distributed instead of the Hollister pic? And assuming that your answer is “no,” is it your position that President Obama is a vile piece of shit? ETA: And please answer my questions from before: 1. Are you that sure that a 160-pound athlete could not sucker punch and beat up a 240-pound fatty? 2. According to reports, Zimmerman’s nose was injured and he had an injury on the back of his head. Are you so sure that those reports are lies? If they are not lies, then how did Zimmerman get injured? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/265 "2012-03-28T14:50:06Z")
You’re not in a position to assume anything about me, except that I hope that life brings you everything you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/266 "2012-03-28T14:51:28Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Let me ask you this: What psychological process do you think has led so many people to believe with a high degree of confidence that Zimmerman is a murder? Skittles and iced tea. Martin had no reason to suddenly turn violent, and we know that Zimmerman was stewing for a confrontation based on his comments to the 911 operator. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/267 "2012-03-28T14:55:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Please answer my question: Do you think Obama would have said what he said about the case if the grill or hoodie pics had been widely distributed instead of the Hollister pic? > > And assuming that your answer is “no,” is it your position that President Obama is a vile piece of shit? > > ETA: And please answer my questions from before: > > 1. Are you that sure that a 160-pound athlete could not sucker punch and beat up a 240-pound fatty? > > 2. According to reports, Zimmerman’s nose was injured and he had an injury on the back of his head. Are you so sure that those reports are lies? If they are not lies, then how did Zimmerman get injured? The hoodie pics HAVE been widely distributed (check his facebook page) and the grill pic isn’t confirmed as being him, last I checked (not that it should matter). I believe that President Obama would have said the same thing regardless, but I don’t see why that matters either. 1. No, but I’m certainly not sure that any such thing happened, and neither are you. 2. I’ve yet to see any actual \*evidence \*that Zimmerman was injured. Perhaps you’d be so kind as to provide it. The whole reason we’re all arguing about this is the worthlessness of the initial investigation/report, as you’ll recall. Oh, and the “psychological process” that led me to believe Zimmerman is a murderer is my ability to process the very few known facts in this case, which are that he stalked and shot an unarmed kid. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/268 "2012-03-28T15:00:52Z")
I see someone is not following his own rules again. ---
**Author:** ![Schyler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Schyler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schyler)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/269 "2012-03-28T15:05:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Whatever team you’re on, can we all agree that the police should have handled this thing with a bit more scrutiny than “lets just believe the shooter”? God damn it, that pisses me off. If it wasn’t for the public outcry, this whole thing would have just been water under the bridge. You’d think the death of an innocent kid would warrant a little more than that. How many people have been killed without public outcry whose deaths are simply forgotten? How do you know the police aren’t still investigating? Were you there? Are you there? There are these things called “facts”. The police have to have them all in a row or the accused walks. Would you rather a perp gets off free because of a single univestigated fact? The police have to make hard choices every single day like this and they do the best they can. It pisses me off that no matter what the circumstances end up being after the trial, the first word that comes out of everyone’s mouth is the R word. Sometimes there are hate crimes. But sometimes it just comes down to two people being in the wrong placee at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/270 "2012-03-28T15:07:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How can you frame self defense when there is audio tape of the child begging for help? And it does seem that the cops didn’t buy the story either, they wanted the shooter charged. The only eyewitness says it was Zimmernan’s cries for help. When the father was given the 911 tapes to listen to back in Feb., he said it was not his son’s voice crying for help. He switched his testimony now, of course. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/271 "2012-03-28T15:20:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Which is why so many of us find Zimmerman’s story to be dubious. But that’s just it: did Zimmerman announce he had a gun to Trayvon? How do we know that Trayvon was aware Zimmerman had a weapon? I haven’t listened to the 911 tapes and am only briefly informed on this story, so apologies ahead of time if this is common knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/272 "2012-03-28T15:23:52Z")
I’m leaning towards Trayvon. Even if Zimmerman’s story is completely true and his actions were legal, he still made a series of stupid decisions that ended in a boy’s death that was entirely preventable. But really I’m on team “thorough investigation”. Initial reports made it seem like the police weren’t taking the incident at all seriously. Now that it seems they might be, I’m less outraged. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/273 "2012-03-28T15:24:32Z")
The alleged injuries to Zimmerman which are being offered as incontestable fact are, in truth, dubious. From the _Miami Herald_, as noted in the ThinkProgress compilation I posted above: [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876\_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy) > [@](#): > > …Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen’s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest… If you peruse the above referenced set of articles, you find remarkable coincidencea: “facts” that tend to exonerate Zimmerman are not explicitly sourced, they refer to “authorities” or “sources within the police department”, which is to say, leaks. Oddly, no one has “leaked” any photos of Zimmerman’s injuries, or any record of his seeking medical attention. Now, its above my pay grade to state that these are facts, as yet, only the scent of cover-up is in the air. And a thorough investigation is in the offing, and I have every confidence it will be pursued. I do note, however, that the “facts” so frequently offered here come in two varieties: the “facts” that show Martin in a harsh light are sourced anonymously (as in “authorities”). For purposes of evidence, they are little more than gossip. My tentative conclusion is that there is a cover-up in progress, an effort by the police in this matter to deflect attention from their appalling lack of professional conduct. No photos were taken of Mr Zimmermans injuries? Or they were taken, but somehow everything else leaked, but they did not? He sustained injuries to his head by having his head slammed into the sidewalk, but no effort was made to see if he had concussive injuries? Anybody else get the distinct aroma of _eau de rat_? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/274 "2012-03-28T15:25:02Z")
I’ve learned a valuable lesson in all of this. Today I’m going to have my friend take a bunch of pictures of me wearing my Sunday best, smiling, and doing things such as fixing a kitten’s broken leg, helping an old lady across the street, working in a soup kitchen, etc. That way if something bad every happens to me where the public is left to judge me based on media photos these will be out there. Apparently photos mean everything when it comes to you being guilty or not. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/275 "2012-03-28T15:27:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The only eyewitness says it was Zimmernan’s cries for help. When the father was given the 911 tapes to listen to back in Feb., he said it was not his son’s voice crying for help. He switched his testimony now, of course. “Of course”? What do you mean “of course”? You have reliable information as to the father’s motives that the rest of us are not privy to? Once again, I invite you to bring. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/276 "2012-03-28T15:29:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The alleged injuries to Zimmerman which are being offered as incontestable fact are, in truth, dubious. From the _Miami Herald_, as noted in the ThinkProgress compilation I posted above: > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876\_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy) Wrong. Here is he initial police report: [http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226\_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf) Talks about back being wet from grass and bloody injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/277 "2012-03-28T15:30:33Z")
What makes Zimmerman look like a thug isn’t so much his “prison jumpsuit” (was that from one of his previous arrests? He hasn’t been charged here) or his trashy facial hair, but the fact that he stalked and murdered a stranger for no reason, as thugs do. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/278 "2012-03-28T15:32:39Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How can you frame self defense when there is audio tape of the child begging for help? And it does seem that the cops didn’t buy the story either, they wanted the shooter charged. Is the tape available for listening somewhere on the net? It might resolve some questions I have. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/279 "2012-03-28T15:38:07Z")
Oh, and about that “only eyewitness” nugget of crap. Please refer to the compilation I offered above and refresh your memory by re-reading points twelve and thirteen. You will find the links right there. > [@](#): > > …12. A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” > > 1. Three witnesses say they heard a boy cry for help before a shot was fired. “Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy.” … There’s my sources. Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/280 "2012-03-28T15:41:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, and about that “only eyewitness” nugget of crap. Please refer to the compilation I offered above and refresh your memory by re-reading points twelve and thirteen. You will find the links right there. > > There’s my sources. Where’s yours? I posted it half a dozen times. And the “earwitnesses” have no idea who is crying for help. They assume it is Trayvon, but have no idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=15)