# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/321 "2012-03-28T18:39:19Z")
The [police reports](http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf) state that the officers found Martin face down on the grass with his arms underneath his body. Anyone want to explain how that happened if Zimmerman shot him while Martin was sitting on top of him beating his face in? I can’t come up with a plausible scenario for that one. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/322 "2012-03-28T18:40:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Annen](#): > > I can’t believe that so many people are willing to let the truth get in the way of some great sensational news media generated hysteria. > > Come on folks… (I would like use the newest catch phrase and the kids name, which I can’t type here because his name is copyrighted by his parents and I’m not sending them cash-) break out them burning pitchforks~ there is plenty of airtime that needs to be sold. > > Truth---- we don’t want no stinkin truth _ **we want us a good cause!!!** _ Did someone leave the asshole beacon on again, or are we just blessed? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/323 "2012-03-28T18:44:18Z")
I wish I were surprised at how quickly and easily some of you embrace the version of events you want to believe and argue that people are lying or engaged in a conspiracy when they present contrary evidence. But it’s par for the course around here really. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/324 "2012-03-28T18:50:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Actually, Officer Smith’s report is the initial one, since when Officer Ayala arrives, Officer Smith is already on the scene and Zimmerman is in his custody. > The hour is when it was filed. Not when the information was gathered. Perhaps you have a special lexicon wherein “initial” report means “the report from the officer who arrives on the scene first, no matter when it is dated”, but since the word “initial” modifies the word “report”, not the phrase “officer to arrive on scene”, most English-speaking people would understand the term “initial report” to refer to the report that actually came into existence and was filed **first**. In addition, “report” refers to the _conveying_ of whatever information was gathered, not to the gathering of the information. According to paperwork, Officer Ayala’s _ **report** _ was the _first_ one, the _initial_ one, the _original_ one, the one that was **first to be filed** , at 2:38 on the morning of February 27. Officer Smith’s report was filed at 3:3X on February 27, making his the second, later, supplemental, _ **not** _-initial report. Using your creative definitions, if Officer Smith were in a car accident and fell into a coma for a week, woke up and filed his report, you’d still refer to his as the “initial” report. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/325 "2012-03-28T18:53:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Links, **Ibn**! Links! I can’t find one, you apparently have them, please bring! > [@](#): > > Police lied Friday, Crump said, when they said Tracy Martin said the voice crying for help was not his son. What Tracy Martin told police, Crump said, was that “he couldn’t tell, that it was too distorted.” > > The audio has since been cleaned up, and now Tracy Martin has no doubt but that the voice is his son, Crump said. [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316\_1\_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-17/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_deadly-shooting-shot-man-reports/2) If you read through the article you’ll notice some statements by the lead investigator Serino which seem completely at odds with the claim now being put forward that he wanted to have Zimmerman arrested for manslaughter. Methinks the police are desperately trying to spin this way out of it and after their attempts at smearing Trayvon have failed they’re now going to try to throw the Prosecutor’s office under the bus. Breaks my heart. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/326 "2012-03-28T18:55:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Actually, Officer Smith’s report is the initial one, since when Officer Ayala arrives, Officer Smith is already on the scene and Zimmerman is in his custody. > The hour is when it was filed. Not when the information was gathered. > [@legalsnugs](#): > > The [police reports](http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf) state that the officers found Martin face down on the grass with his arms underneath his body. Anyone want to explain how that happened if Zimmerman shot him while Martin was sitting on top of him beating his face in? > > I can’t come up with a plausible scenario for that one. > > Thanks. I tried to go there, in much greater detail of how strange that seemed to me. About the only response I got was chiding not to play CSI. But I’m with you: I want to know the exact position of Martin’s body, especially his legs, and Zimmerman’s exact description of how they went from what seems now to be Martin’s knees on either side of zimmerman’s body, bending over him and Zimmerman on his back to Zimmerman standing and Martin face down. If Zimmerman slides out from underneath Martin’s already-dead body, there’s definitely blood on his front and Martin’s knees must still be bent. If Martin didn’t die immediately, what exactly occurred immediately following the shot? These are extremely useful questions to answer in assessing the believability of Zimmerman’s account. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/327 "2012-03-28T18:59:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I tried to go there, in much greater detail of how strange that seemed to me. About the only response I got was chiding not to play CSI. > > But I’m with you: I want to know the exact position of Martin’s body, especially his legs, and Zimmerman’s exact description of how they went from what seems now to be Martin’s knees on either side of zimmerman’s body, bending over him and Zimmerman on his back to Zimmerman standing and Martin face down. If Zimmerman slides out from underneath Martin’s already-dead body, there’s definitely blood on his front and Martin’s knees must still be bent. If Martin didn’t die immediately, what exactly occurred immediately following the shot? > > These are extremely useful questions to answer in assessing the believability of Zimmerman’s account. Agreed, also admittedly outside of the movies I’ve never seen anyone shot, but if Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, then shouldn’t Zimmerman’s shirt be covered with Martin’s blood and if so, why isn’t this mentioned in the report. For that matter, was the shirt with the supposed stains bagged and tagged? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/328 "2012-03-28T19:11:28Z")
I’m on Team Close-Minded. I’ve made up my decision and just want it to be validated, no matter what really happened. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/329 "2012-03-28T19:25:55Z")
> [@Larry\_Annen](#): > > (I would like use the newest catch phrase and the kids name, which I can’t type here because his name is copyrighted by his parents and I’m not sending them cash-) 1. Names, slogans, and short phrases are not protected by copyright law. 2. Names, slogans, and short phrases might be protected by trademark law, but such protection may exist regardless of whether such term has been registered. 3. Even if such a term is used as a trademark or registered as a trademark, the owner cannot control uses such as discussion on these boards. The only uses that can be blocked are uses in commerce that are likely to cause confusion as to the origin of goods or services. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/330 "2012-03-28T19:42:51Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > I can’t come up with a plausible scenario for that one. Not that I believe Zimmerman but this makes sense. If someone dies on top of you and you roll them off they will be laying face down. More telling would be where the entry wound is and whether it was close range. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/331 "2012-03-28T19:46:47Z")
Actually I think the opposite is true. If someone is shot while laying face down on top of you and you roll them off, they will be then face up. You’d have to roll them over once again for them to be face down right? Maybe if you slide out from under, but then why would his hands be under his body? And why wouldn’t he have been covered in blood from sliding out? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/332 "2012-03-28T19:58:17Z")
> [@legalsnugs](#): > > The [police reports](http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf) state that the officers found Martin face down on the grass with his arms underneath his body. Anyone want to explain how that happened if Zimmerman shot him while Martin was sitting on top of him beating his face in? > > I can’t come up with a plausible scenario for that one. > > Thanks. People almost never die instantly when they’re shot. Quite possibly he staggered around a bit trying to get away before he collapsed clutching his stomach (if that’s where The Idiot shot him). I don’t know that this is definitely what happened, but instant death upon getting shot is pretty much something that only happens in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/333 "2012-03-28T20:07:12Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > I’m on Team Close-Minded. I’ve made up my decision and just want it to be validated, no matter what really happened. Unfortunately, the only person that’s currently alive who knows what really happened is the guy with the gun and the car who stalked another guy (without a gun or a car) and shot him to death. So the alive guy, as well as the authorities that decided against arresting him, both have the obvious motivation to paint themselves in the prettiest light possible. Knowing what they know, and knowing that the dead guy can’t voice his side of the story, it’s pretty easy to come up with a fictitious scenario in which to claim self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/334 "2012-03-28T20:09:44Z")
If someone is on top of you and you shoot them, you could scramble backwards, leaving them to fall forward. Assuming they died very quickly, which as LP mentions, isn’t a given. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/335 "2012-03-28T20:22:17Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Unfortunately, the only person that’s currently alive who knows what really happened is the guy with the gun and the car who stalked another guy (without a gun or a car) and shot him to death. So the alive guy, as well as the authorities that decided against arresting him, both have the obvious motivation to paint themselves in the prettiest light possible. Knowing what they know, and knowing that the dead guy can’t voice his side of the story, it’s pretty easy to come up with a fictitious scenario in which to claim self-defense. I don’t want to hear your facts; just tell me I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/336 "2012-03-28T20:46:38Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Not that I believe Zimmerman but this makes sense. If someone dies on top of you and you roll them off they will be laying face down. More telling would be where the entry wound is and whether it was close range. > [@Airbeck](#): > > Actually I think the opposite is true. If someone is shot while laying face down on top of you and you roll them off, they will be then face up. You’d have to roll them over once again for them to be face down right? Maybe if you slide out from under, but then why would his hands be under his body? And why wouldn’t he have been covered in blood from sliding out? I invite folks to play it out, using a short fat guy and a tall slim guy, positioned as makes sense for tall slim guy to be punching short fat guy. Tall slim guy is shot… test instant death and folling on top of fat guy, test what it takes to stand up from that position… > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > People _ **almost** _ never die instantly when they’re shot. Quite possibly he staggered around a bit trying to get away before he collapsed clutching his stomach (if that’s where The Idiot shot him). I don’t know that this is definitely what happened, but instant death upon getting shot is pretty much something that only happens in the movies. I’ve seen lots of movies where people die instantly, real movies of real death. (I have a thing for that stuff, or used to) and I would argue the opposite: that people staggering around in death throes is much more movie-ish. Even if people do not actually instantly _ **die** _ upon receiving a lethal shot, they very frequently _ **collapse** _ instantly. As a matter of fact, that’s one of the most fascinating aspects- in some cases it looks like a marionette whose strings have been cut - one second erct and animated, less than a full second later, a heap of tangled limbs on the ground. I’ve seen this in video not only of headshots, where you would expect to see it most often, but also with body shots. > [@Lobohan](#): > > If someone is on top of you and you shoot them, you could scramble backwards, leaving them to fall forward. Assuming they died very quickly, which as LP mentions, isn’t a given. No matter what is likely or not, I think these are questions that MUST be asked and answers must be sought. Key: did the CSI people take pictures of Martin’s body before it was moved? Did they bag Zimmerman’s clothes? This stuff matters. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/337 "2012-03-28T21:04:55Z")
Yeesh almighty. Stood, why in hell would you even question whether the police took a picture of the body? Of all the stupid shit in this.thread and the other one, that’s . . . some more stupid shit. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/338 "2012-03-28T21:09:03Z")
Of course they did. They might even have remembered to remove the lens cap! ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/339 "2012-03-28T21:18:37Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Actually I think the opposite is true. If someone is shot while laying face down on top of you and you roll them off, they will be then face up. You’d have to roll them over once again for them to be face down right? Maybe if you slide out from under, but then why would his hands be under his body? And why wouldn’t he have been covered in blood from sliding out? I see your point. I guess I could say the position of the body could play out a bunch of different ways. Definitely the blood evidence and location and nature of the wound are more revelatory. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/340 "2012-03-28T21:21:51Z")
Yeah we can speculate about how it may have played out based on body position, but ultimately its not really possible to infer very much without more details from the crime scene and the wound(s). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=18)