# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/621 "2012-03-30T01:23:58Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > First answer my question. What is your address? I intended to do nothing less legal than Zimmerman to you. Surely if Zimmerman did nothing wrong you’ll give me your address. There are all kinds of legal things that I prefer not to see. Now answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/622 "2012-03-30T01:24:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ok fine, then let’s assume for the sake of discussion that the story about Martin going for Skittles or whatever is false and he was wandering in a gated community for unknown reasons. Agreed? You’ve said that, like, three times. Do you have [hoopified-itis](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14910938&postcount=277)or something? Will you just tell me what fucking point you’re trying to make, ferchrissakes? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/623 "2012-03-30T01:37:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There are all kinds of legal things that I prefer not to see. Now answer my question. So it was okay to do Martin, but not to you. Thanks for proving my point, coward hypocrite. Doesn’t matter if it’s legal, you just stated it’s not okay to do it to you, therefor it’s not okay to do to Martin. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Cite? For fuck’s sake. [Let me fucking google that for you](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zimmerman+police+corrected+testimony). ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/624 "2012-03-30T01:38:59Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > For fuck’s sake. [Let me fucking google that for you](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zimmerman+police+corrected+testimony). How many times does Rand Rover have to tell you? STOP USING FACTS. They have a well-known liberal bias. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/625 "2012-03-30T02:07:39Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So it was okay to do Martin, but not to you. Once again, please cite the law that Zimmerman broke as he followed Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/626 "2012-03-30T02:29:00Z")
[quote=“The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge, post:623, topic:616881”] > [@Terr](#): > > Once again, please cite the law that Zimmerman broke as he followed Martin. It’s possible that an adult who stalks a minor with the intent to murder him is already breaking the law; that’s kind of a moot point. Certainly, when he executed Martin for being black in a white neighborhood then conspired with the police to lie about it, many laws were broken. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/627 "2012-03-30T02:30:53Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It’s possible that an adult who stalks a minor with the intent to murder him is already breaking the law; that’s kind of a moot point. Prove intent. Show the law that doesn’t allow you to follow someone on public property. > [@](#): > > Certainly, when he executed Martin for being black in a white neighborhood then conspired with the police to lie about it, many laws were broken. Depending on circumstances, about which you have no idea, the shooting was either lawful or unlawful. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/628 "2012-03-30T02:32:22Z")
What is “unknowable” about talking on the phone to his girlfriend? What is wrong about wandering around the neighborhood he had a right to be in, talking on the phone? Is it wearing a hoodie? All along I’ve thought that Zimmerman said “there is something wrong with hiim” and “he looks like he’s on drugs” because he was talking to himself, maybe smiling or frowning and gesturing with his hands. We know he was having a conversation but Zimmerman never described it that way. He saw a young black male, hoodie, unfamiliar… and therefore drug-crazed criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/629 "2012-03-30T02:35:23Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > For fuck’s sake. [Let me fucking google that for you](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=zimmerman+police+corrected+testimony). > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > How many times does Rand Rover have to tell you? STOP USING FACTS. They have a well-known liberal bias. I keep expecting you people to think. When will I learn that I’m expecting too much? All of the news articles about “the police corrected witnesses” say just that–a report says that a witness says that the police corrected them or another witness. They don’t ever report more than that, such as details of the conversation, what it means for the police to “correct” a witness exactly, they just say that “the police corrected the witness.” That’s not a fact, that’s someone’s opinion. Again, if you idiots would just wait, all of this would shake out. But no, you have to construct your personal narrative of the events based on your own biases. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/630 "2012-03-30T02:35:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Once again, please cite the law that Zimmerman broke as he followed Martin. You’re like a broken doll. One of those ones that says things, except your playback thing got stuck looping the same brainless recording. It’s okay to do to Martin, but not to you. That’s all we need to know about your position. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/631 "2012-03-30T02:39:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You’re like a broken doll. And still you cannot cite the law. Yet you for some reason insist that Zimmerman had “no right” to follow Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/632 "2012-03-30T02:45:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > All of the news articles about “the police corrected witnesses” say just that–a report says that a witness says that the police corrected them or another witness. They don’t ever report more than that, such as details of the conversation, what it means for the police to “correct” a witness exactly, they just say that “the police corrected the witness.” That’s not a fact, that’s someone’s opinion. Hey, you lying, racist idiot: > **[Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct](https://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T3UdkUcvp8F)** > > ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed 17-year-old teenager by a neighborhood watch captain, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eye witness' account and the... > [@](#): > > Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. > > The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help. > **[Trayvon shooting witness, 13, 'was pressured by police to support Zimmerman's...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122546/Trayvon-Martin-case-Witness-13-pressured-police-support-Zimmermans-story.html)** > > Cheryl Brown claims her son Austin, 13, 'couldn't see anything' despite walking past the scene as Neighborhood Watch captain George Zimmerman shot unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin. > [@](#): > > The mother of a key witness to the killing of Trayvon Martin says her teenaged son was ‘pressured’ to tell police what they wanted to hear. > > Cheryl Brown claims her son Austin, 13, ‘couldn’t see anything’ despite walking past the scene as Neighborhood Watch captain George Zimmerman shot unarmed black teenager Trayvon. > > Austin told police at the time of the shooting last month that he had seen someone fitting Zimmerman’s description lying on the ground, bolstering the gunman’s claim that he acted in self-defence. > > Ms Brown told the Daily News that Austin’s statement was obtained from him by police who wanted to influence the statement to match their preconceptions. > > ‘He kept telling them he couldn’t see anything because it was too dark,’ she said. ‘He said he couldn’t see the race or anything.’ > > Police asked the boy to identify the person he saw screaming on the ground by recalling the colour of his clothes. > > ‘They gave him a multiple choice question and gave him three colors,’ Ms Brown said. ‘He said, “I think it was red.”’ > > But Ms Brown now insists that Austin had no way to tell which of the two he saw, as she told the Daily News: ‘Knowing my son, I believe he felt pressured to give the colour.’ Two very specific accounts, one of which NAMES the witness whose testimony was doctored by the police. This isn’t hard to find, and the English teacher bit has been out there for days. I guess this is the part where you say this evidence doesn’t count because we’re just committing the sin of “supporting ideas with facts,” yell your non-hilarious catchphrase “mic check,” and pretend anyone doesn’t realize you’re just defending the principle of white people murdering black people without consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/633 "2012-03-30T02:49:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I keep expecting you people to think. When will I learn that I’m expecting too much? > > All of the news articles about “the police corrected witnesses” say just that–a report says that a witness says that the police corrected them or another witness. They don’t ever report more than that, such as details of the conversation, what it means for the police to “correct” a witness exactly, they just say that “the police corrected the witness.” That’s not a fact, that’s someone’s opinion. > > Again, if you idiots would just wait, all of this would shake out. But no, you have to construct your personal narrative of the events based on your own biases. +1 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/634 "2012-03-30T03:00:07Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Hey, you lying, racist idiot: > > [Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T3UdkUcvp8F) > > [Trayvon Martin case: Witness, 13, 'was pressured by police to support Zimmerman's story' | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122546/Trayvon-Martin-case-Witness-13-pressured-police-support-Zimmermans-story.html) > > Two very specific accounts, one of which NAMES the witness whose testimony was doctored by the police. > > This isn’t hard to find, and the English teacher bit has been out there for days. > > I guess this is the part where you say this evidence doesn’t count because we’re just committing the sin of “supporting ideas with facts,” yell your non-hilarious catchphrase “mic check,” and pretend anyone doesn’t realize you’re just defending the principle of white people murdering black people without consequence. Well, shit, you caught me. The jig is up, I admit it. I’m totally down with white people killing black people without consequence. I’m a lying racist, you found me out. Good job, sir, my hat is off to you. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/635 "2012-03-30T03:02:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The only answer to this question that makes any sense is “I don’t know.” The only problem is that for some folks, the answer to “what is the most likely cause of the events” seems to be “I don’t know, and I don’t want to know - let’s just believe what the only living witness tells us” Most people want to have a thorough and unbiased investigation. That’s where the trouble starts - it is increasingly looking like the police/authorities were NOT interested in a thorough and unbiased investigation. It looks very much like they simply wanted to brush the whole incident under the carpet, and do virtually no investigating off what actually happened. This is what has pissed people off. When a violent incident happens, you can be assured that the parties on both sides will have two very different stories of why it transpired. Each party has incentive to paint themselves in the best light and their opponent in the worst light. Trouble is when there is a case like this when one of the parties is dead and cannot tell their story. To simply believe the obviously biased statements of the (living) party to a violent act, and not even investigate properly is an affront to justice. This is what folks are pissed about. The dead youth could not speak for himself, and the justice system appeared to be completely uninterested in finding out the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/636 "2012-03-30T03:13:19Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Add in > > 1. Martin was unarmed. > 2. Zimmerman shot and killed Martin. > > and to me that is absolutely all you need to know about this case to hold Zimmerman responsible for this case. Rio Bravo: Joe Burdette: It wasn’t murder. Nathan Burdette: If he says it wasn’t murder, why do you say it was? John T. Chance: Man gets shot that’s got a gun, there’s room for reasonable doubt. Man gets shot that hasn’t got a gun, what would you call it? But, you knew that already otherwise you wouldn’t have set things up the way you did. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/637 "2012-03-30T03:30:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m a lying racist QFT ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/638 "2012-03-30T03:38:00Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > That would be the “worthless fucktard bench” at this juncture, wouldn’t it? > > . No, that’s your bench. I’m on the side saying shut the fuck up with the conjecture and let the courts handle it. You know, the intelligent side. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/639 "2012-03-30T04:14:26Z")
This deflection is popping up everywhere, and I think it needs to be corrected: > [@Terr](#): > > And Zimmerman had a right to do what he was doing. All the way to the point of physical confrontation - whoever initiated it. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Horse balls. Zimmerman initiated a confrontation, while armed, when he got out of his truck to follow someone who was doing nothing wrong, but who he was convinced was one of those assholes who always gets away. > > The end result - a dead kid - is his fault. > [@Terr](#): > > Please explain which law he broke when he got out of the truck to “follow someone who was doing nothing”. No one said anything about Zimmerman breaking any laws by following Martin - they said that doing so _initiated the confrontation_. To belabor the point: **Person A** : We don’t know who initiated the confrontation. **Person B** : Yes we do - Zimmerman was in a car, following Martin, and then proceeded to get out of the car to continue following him. **Person A** : There are no laws against getting out of your car and following someone! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/640 "2012-03-30T04:24:31Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > No one said anything about Zimmerman breaking any laws by following Martin - they said that doing so _initiated the confrontation_. To show you the starting posts: **Jack Batty** : He [Martin] had a right to do what he was doing: walking down a sidewalk. **Terr** : And Zimmerman had a right to do what he was doing. All the way to the point of physical confrontation - whoever initiated it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=33)