# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/701 "2012-03-30T16:23:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So which of those things you just listed qualifies him for execution? None. > [@](#): > > Which one is the capital offense? None. > [@](#): > > Also, how did Zimmerman know all of this before he started following him? Who is claiming that he did? > [@](#): > > I got suspended from school for a day once back in high school. Does that mean I’m also a cracked out, murderous burgler in need of a bullet through the chest? No. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/702 "2012-03-30T16:25:18Z")
Ok, so what was the point of your last post then? What were you trying to say? How is anything you said relevant to this incident? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/703 "2012-03-30T16:26:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree completely. And of course the same thing goes for Martin. Even if it turns out that Martin was standing on the corner selling crack cocaine and looking for houses to burglarize, it does not follow that Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense is legitimate. There are moments that give me hope. The first robin of Spring. The kindness of the strange. An intelligent remark from you. I am grateful. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/704 "2012-03-30T16:29:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That he was suspended from school 3 times; that his computer nickname for himself was “no-limit nigga”; that he had gotten into an altercation with a school bus driver; that he was caught with a substantial amount of ladies’ jewelry in his bag. > > (And yes, none of this stuff has been substantiated at this point. But if it is, then it raises the probability that Zimmerman’s story is true.) Yes, and we can ignore unsubstantiated gossip, until it’s substantiated. Zimmerman’s record calling the cops on black people is substantiated. His record of assaults is substantiated. The statements from his family are, as well, along with the statements he gave the police, in those cases where the person recounting those them is known. The account of the incident from Martin’s girlfriend is in a sworn affadavit. All you have are anonymous allegations originating god-knows-where, and the possibility that he has a screen name that might, just possibly, be associated with a violent criminal (boy am I glad I’m not wearing a hoodie), but is just as likely to suggest a fondness for Texas Hold 'Em. Zimmerman’s story is not entirely credible because it perfectly matches his own interests. All the information about him that has been verified, or averred by people who are close to him, further undermines his credibility. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/705 "2012-03-30T16:30:50Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > In which case we have no reason to believe any of the stories that would justify Zimmerman’s actions. All we know is that he shot and killed a teenager after stalking him in his car. And we have the teenager’s girlfriend describing exactly what she heard on her cellphone at the time of the incident. With no reliable information from Zimmerman, what conclusion could possibly be drawn, other than that he accosted Martin? Well, [Zimmerman’s father says](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/032812-exclusive-robert-zimmerman-interview) the phone call with the girlfriend never happened: \*“I don’t believe that happened. I don’t believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved… that all of a sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone.” \* He also said that Trayvon [threatened his son with death](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9174328/Trayvon-Martin-New-footage-of-George-Zimmerman-reignites-controversy.html): “You’re going to die now” or “You’re going to die tonight.” Isn’t that enough right there to support lethal self-defense with or without injuries? What more do we need? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/706 "2012-03-30T16:32:25Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > Well, [Zimmerman’s father says](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/032812-exclusive-robert-zimmerman-interview) the phone call with the girlfriend never happened: \*“I don’t believe that happened. I don’t believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved… that all of a sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone.” \* > > He also said that Trayvon [threatened his son with death](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9174328/Trayvon-Martin-New-footage-of-George-Zimmerman-reignites-controversy.html): “You’re going to die now” or “You’re going to die tonight.” Isn’t that enough right there to support lethal self-defense with or without injuries? > > What more do we need? :rolleyes: You forgot, “Yo Homie!” ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/707 "2012-03-30T16:32:46Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Ok, so what was the point of your last post then? What were you trying to say? That if these things are true about Martin, it raises the probability that he is a hothead who unjustifiably attacked Zimmerman consistent with Zimmerman’s story. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/708 "2012-03-30T16:33:14Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > Well, [Zimmerman’s father says](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/032812-exclusive-robert-zimmerman-interview) the phone call with the girlfriend never happened: \*“I don’t believe that happened. I don’t believe she was on the phone with him, and I find it very strange with the publicity involved… that all of a sudden, after three weeks, someone would remember that they were on the phone.” \* > > He also said that Trayvon [threatened his son with death](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9174328/Trayvon-Martin-New-footage-of-George-Zimmerman-reignites-controversy.html): “You’re going to die now” or “You’re going to die tonight.” Isn’t that enough right there to support lethal self-defense with or without injuries? > > What more do we need? :rolleyes: What, indeed? I’m sure the cell phone company was part of the conspiracy, making up that record of the call that went dead shortly before Martin did. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/709 "2012-03-30T16:34:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > There are moments that give me hope. The first robin of Spring. The kindness of the strange. An intelligent remark from you. I am grateful. Lol, probably you perceive that because I am reasoning with an open mind. I do not automatically assume that Zimmerman is innocent like the bigots and idiots on Chimpout. And I do not automatically assume that Zimmerman is guilty like the bigots and idiots here (on "Team Trayvon.) ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/710 "2012-03-30T16:35:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Excuse me? I can’t speak for everyone, but I am pissed because the wheels of justice had _stopped_ rolling, not because I wasn’t willing to wait for them.\*. Is this really true? The ‘stopped rolling’ part. I mean, it’s only been month. Is it possible that their investigation is ongoing and they are just not releasing details to the press? Given the level of public furor, this would be understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/711 "2012-03-30T16:38:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > because you’re smart enough to know you’re losing this argument ^^^My vote! 'specially in combination with his WTF?!?!? definition of “initial report” - gotta give him credit for commitment, if nothing else! > [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t know that initiating the confrontation has much to do with SYG. If Zimmerman’s account of being cold-cocked and having his head slammed against the ground is true, he wouldn’t have much opportunity to retreat, and SYG doesn’t really come into the picture. Does, actually, or might - certainly some details need to be sorted out carefully by a jury: > [@](#): > > As Scott Sundby, a professor at the University of Miami School of Law, quoted in a Huffington Post [article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-_n_1371171.html) about this case and the 2005 Florida law that allows people to use deadly force if they feel threatened called “Stand Your Ground,” states, > "You cannot **provoke** the confrontation. _ **You cannot be the instigator and then claim 'stand your ground.’”** _ > [@](#): > > **Florida** > > **2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE** [[18]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#cite_note-17) > **776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.** —…(SYG DETAILS) > > **776.041 Use of force by aggressor.** —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter \*\*is not available \*\*to a person who: > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or > > (2)  **Initially provokes the use of force against himself** or herself, **unless** : > > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in **imminent danger of death or great bodily harm** _ **and** _ that he or she **has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant** ; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. So the jury needs to determine:a: did Zimmerman’s behavior provoke Martin to violence against him? if the answer is yes-b: Did Zimmerman _genuinely_ believe he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm? If yes: c: Was such fear _reasonable_? Afer all, some people passionately believe that little green men are sucking their brains out with straws, but that doesn’t mean they get to kill anyone as a result. If yes: d: Did he _ **exhaust** _ _ **every** _ reasonable means of _ **escaping** _ that danger before resorting to lethal force? So “He was banging my head on the ground \*(not cement, by the way: if Zimmerman’s back was wet and had grass on it, stands to reason his head was being banged against the same lawn his back picked up grass from, although not guaranteed…the kind of detail that needs to be asked of the witnesses who saw them: was the man on the bottom entirely on the lawn area or were some parts of his body on the cement?) \*so I had to shoot him in the chest” isn’t quite the simple get out of jail free card some believe. Personally I think that even if he can sell b and c, he’s screwed on d, assuming the prosecution can sell a, which I believe they can, since Zimmerman’s history paints him as a grade A asshole wannabe: > [@](#): > > [[Zimmerman]](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html)had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for **aggressive tactics** , a homeowner said. > Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner’s association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity. > At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “ **one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,** ” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain. And therefore it is not quite a slam-dunk to argue that his many calls to 911, or the fact that he followed a strange teenager in his subdivision, show any kind of criminal intent. Bit of a stretch, it turns out: he was self-appointed, there hasn’t been any support that I’ve seen for there being any kind of genuine watch group at all, and it _definitely_ [was \*not \*official](http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php): > [@](#): > > Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA) – the parent organization of [USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch](http://www.usaonwatch.org/) – it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. **Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.** > > “In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket,” Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens’ Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. "Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. **Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon."** > Despite this, Zimmerman admitted that he had fired a weapon on the night of the incident. In addition, the non-emergency call Zimmerman placed on February 26 before the shooting revealed he had been pursuing Martin by car before accosting the youth on foot – **all direct violations of Neighborhood Watch policies.** You can call the brown liquid chocolate pudding if you like, but it still looks, smells and tastes like the shit that it is. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/712 "2012-03-30T16:44:20Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Yes, and we can ignore unsubstantiated gossip, until it’s substantiated. I’m not sure I would “ignore” it, but I would give it less weight certainly. In any event, it has not been substantiated that Martin was simply out to get a snack. In this case, the key evidence is still out. Which is why I have not yet made up my mind. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s story is not entirely credible because it perfectly matches his own interests. Agree, self-serving statements always deserve skepticism. What I am most interested to see is (1) the evidence (if any) of Zimmerman’s alleged injuries; and (2) the statements of eyewitnesses. If it turns out that Zimmerman really has injuries consistent with his claims and 1 or 2 eyewitnesses corroborate his story, then my conclusion is that he is most likely innocent. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/713 "2012-03-30T16:52:19Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If it turns out that Zimmerman really has injuries consistent with his claims and 1 or 2 eyewitnesses corroborate his story, then my conclusion is that he is most likely innocent. And if there’s no evidence of injuries? Then what is your conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/714 "2012-03-30T16:54:03Z")
But **Stoid** , here is the relevant statute at least per Zimmerman’s “statement” thus far: 776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013. At the very least, bring up both statutes. Put in a “but see” site you legal dodo bird (as opposed to the legal eagle you believe you are). I would claim you’re being disingenuous about the actual law, but I know you’re fairly ignorant of how statues work. Well, that and case law, and appeals, and forcible detainer, and court staff…I can go on… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/715 "2012-03-30T16:55:21Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Is this really true? The ‘stopped rolling’ part. I mean, it’s only been month. Is it possible that their investigation is ongoing and they are just not releasing details to the press? Given the level of public furor, this would be understandable. It _was_ true. The public furor arose _after_ the Sanford PD and state attorney’s office decided not to charge Zimmerman with anything. Remember, Martin was killed more than a month ago; it wasn’t news at all for the first week, and was only local news for the second. There is now an ongoing and apparently thorough investigation, but it’s _because_ of the public furor, not in spite of it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/716 "2012-03-30T17:01:26Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That if these things are true about Martin, it raises the probability that he is a hothead who unjustifiably attacked Zimmerman consistent with Zimmerman’s story. > > Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Zimmerman’s \*substantiated \*history indicates the probability that he is a hothead who unjustifiably attacked Trayvon, consistent with every piece of evidence that is not Zimmerman’s story. You seem to be having some trouble with that concept. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/717 "2012-03-30T17:04:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There is now an ongoing and apparently thorough investigation, but it’s _because_ of the public furor, not in spite of it. No argument there. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/718 "2012-03-30T17:06:42Z")
> [@C3](#): > > And if there’s no evidence of injuries? Then what is your conclusion? If there is no evidence of injury and no corroborating witness statements, my conclusion is that Zimmerman is probably guilty of some kind of homicide crime. If there is no evidence of injury but there are witnesses who confirm that Martin attacked Zimmerman and was beating him up, then I am perplexed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/719 "2012-03-30T17:18:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > As I say, you don’t understand common, conversational usage. As I said, you don’t. > [@](#): > > I punched Fred and he \*immediately \*fell down. By your standards he didn’t, since a second or two probably passed before he stopped moving. If you punched Fred and two seconds later he fell down, then no, he didn’t “immediately” fall down. > [@](#): > > I shot Fred and he \*immediately \*fell to the ground, dead. If you shoot Fred and in two seconds he falls to the ground, then no, his fall is not immediate. > [@](#): > > An explosion went off and I immediately dove to the ground. Again, if it takes you two seconds to dive to the ground, it is not immediate. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/720 "2012-03-30T17:20:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I said, you don’t. > If you punched Fred and two seconds later he fell down, then no, he didn’t “immediately” fall down. > > If you shoot Fred and in two seconds he falls to the ground, then no, his fall is not immediate. > Again, if it takes you two seconds to dive to the ground, it is not immediate. **Terr** , you’re wrong. Native English speakers do use the word that way. It is not a synonym for instantaneously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=37)