# Are you Team Trayvon or Team Zimmerman? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881 "2012-03-26T21:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/801 "2012-03-30T22:25:47Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > “Provocation” in most states, including Florida, would include such things as brandishing a weapon, no? (Board lawyers, please correct me if I’m wrong.) > > Carry law in FL does not allow open carry in public except as associated with transport directly to and from legal venues for shooting (range, hunting, etc.). I’ve not seen any suggestions that Zimmerman was in the middle of any such activity, but I have seen statements to the effect that he was wearing his weapon at his hip. I would think that deliberate display of a handgun, whether holstered or not, during a heated verbal altercation counts as brandishing. I know that I would find it provocative. Threatening. An obvious attempt to intimidate. > > I’m not claiming that Zimmerman definitely displayed his 9mm to Trayvon Martin, much less that he unholstered it, but this certainly fits with the picture of a self-appointed neighborhood watch “captain” and rejected LEO wannabe with resentment toward “these assholes” he’s on watch against. IIRC, didn’t he or someone speaking for him claim that Martin was trying to get the weapon, and that’s why he had to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/802 "2012-03-30T22:31:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > IIRC, didn’t he or someone speaking for him claim that Martin was trying to get the weapon, and that’s why he had to kill him? While on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/803 "2012-03-30T22:49:21Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > “Provocation” in most states, including Florida, would include such things as brandishing a weapon, no? (Board lawyers, please correct me if I’m wrong.) > > Carry law in FL does not allow open carry in public except as associated with transport directly to and from legal venues for shooting (range, hunting, etc.). I’ve not seen any suggestions that Zimmerman was in the middle of any such activity, but I have seen statements to the effect that he was wearing his weapon at his hip. I would think that deliberate display of a handgun, whether holstered or not, during a heated verbal altercation counts as brandishing. I know that I would find it provocative. Threatening. An obvious attempt to intimidate. > > I’m not claiming that Zimmerman definitely displayed his 9mm to Trayvon Martin, much less that he unholstered it, but this certainly fits with the picture of a self-appointed neighborhood watch “captain” and rejected LEO wannabe with resentment toward “these assholes” he’s on watch against. The first officer on scene says in his report > [@](#): > > Located on the inside of Zimmerman’s waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9semi auto handgun and holster. I found a picture of a [PF9 in an inside the waistband holster.](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7425/imag0094w.jpg) Martin’s girlfriend does not mention a gun that I can remember. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/804 "2012-03-30T22:58:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > IIRC, didn’t he or someone speaking for him claim that Martin was trying to get the weapon, and that’s why he had to kill him? Combined with a verbal threat of immediate death according to his father: Either “You’re going to die tonight” or “You’re going to die now!” The father wasn’t sure which. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/805 "2012-03-30T23:17:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Jeanie** , I don’t know you from Adam, and you’re awful damn personal for a stranger. But simply what it is, what I said. You want someone to argue gun laws with, there’s a bunch of 'em here, you just start yourself a thread and you can dance with them till the cows come home. > > Not me. It just ain’t worth it. And those other people will offer a viewpoint roughly similar to mine own, so similar that the distinction isn’t worth the effort. Now, you want to talk bar-b-q or tell Aggie jokes, I’m your guy. Outside of that, why don’t we just each pretend the other doesn’t exist? Suits me just fine, how about you? Darlin’ I’m not fighting with you over guns. I don’t get into GD’s about gun laws and whatnot. Some of my best friends are anti gun and I just smiled while typing that. If you’ll simply explain the crack you tried to make and now have avoided twice although directly addressing me, I’d appreciate it. Then we can pretend the other doesn’t exist. That works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/806 "2012-03-30T23:20:16Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > Combined with a verbal threat of immediate death according to his father: Either “You’re going to die tonight” or “You’re going to die now!” The father wasn’t sure which. A second hand quote from a close relative of the man who shot someone and was likely desperately looking for a self-defense excuse. Color me unimpressed. I remain steady in my request for an actual investigation by competent officials. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/807 "2012-03-30T23:50:13Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > “Provocation” in most states, including Florida, would include such things as brandishing a weapon, no? (Board lawyers, please correct me if I’m wrong.) > > Carry law in FL does not allow open carry in public except as associated with transport directly to and from legal venues for shooting (range, hunting, etc.). I’ve not seen any suggestions that Zimmerman was in the middle of any such activity, but I have seen statements to the effect that he was wearing his weapon at his hip. I would think that deliberate display of a handgun, whether holstered or not, during a heated verbal altercation counts as brandishing. I know that I would find it provocative. Threatening. An obvious attempt to intimidate. > > I’m not claiming that Zimmerman definitely displayed his 9mm to Trayvon Martin, much less that he unholstered it, but this certainly fits with the picture of a self-appointed neighborhood watch “captain” and rejected LEO wannabe with resentment toward “these assholes” he’s on watch against. What you’re describing then is not brandishing a gun. It is not provocation pursuant to that Florida statute. Think about all the absurd results you might get–for instance think about a CC holder with a holster yelling at someone–is that provocation? Nope. Per that statute, provocation is not “mere words or conduct without force.” _Gibbs v. State,_ 789 So.2d 443, 444–45 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App. 2001). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/808 "2012-03-31T00:05:52Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > … I’d appreciate it. … And after all the nice things you said about me, how could I refuse? Pretty easy, actually. Texas women, I swear. Kick you in the nuts and wonder why you aren’t glad to see them. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/809 "2012-03-31T00:34:27Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > “Provocation” in most states, including Florida, would include such things as brandishing a weapon, no? (Board lawyers, please correct me if I’m wrong.) > > Carry law in FL does not allow open carry in public except as associated with transport directly to and from legal venues for shooting (range, hunting, etc.). I’ve not seen any suggestions that Zimmerman was in the middle of any such activity, but I have seen statements to the effect that he was wearing his weapon at his hip. I would think that deliberate display of a handgun, whether holstered or not, during a heated verbal altercation counts as brandishing. I know that I would find it provocative. Threatening. An obvious attempt to intimidate. > > I’m not claiming that Zimmerman definitely displayed his 9mm to Trayvon Martin, much less that he unholstered it, but this certainly fits with the picture of a self-appointed neighborhood watch “captain” and rejected LEO wannabe with resentment toward “these assholes” he’s on watch against. May have been hasty–sorry for not checking the holster issue. Wow, Florida doesn’t even allow open carry with retention holsters? Dayumm! Looks like as long as a coat or shirt or something regularly conceals the gun it’s concealed, and if it just happens to poke out such that someone can see it, it’s ok as long as it is brief and not “intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner.” 790.053. If Zimmerman was enough of a dumbass to regularly carry where the gun wasn’t covered, if it’s a hip holster, I doubt that’s enough to be provocation considering the statute and case law. A hand reaching towards the gun? Now we’re talking… ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/810 "2012-03-31T00:50:31Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > If Zimmerman was enough of a dumbass to regularly carry where the gun wasn’t covered, if it’s a hip holster, I doubt that’s enough to be provocation considering the statute and case law. A hand reaching towards the gun? Now we’re talking… You really have question whether Zimmerman was a dumbass? Really? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/811 "2012-03-31T01:17:10Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > May have been hasty–sorry for not checking the holster issue. Wow, Florida doesn’t even allow open carry with retention holsters? Dayumm! Looks like as long as a coat or shirt or something regularly conceals the gun it’s concealed, and if it just happens to poke out such that someone can see it, it’s ok as long as it is brief and not “intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner.” 790.053. > > If Zimmerman was enough of a dumbass to regularly carry where the gun wasn’t covered, if it’s a hip holster, I doubt that’s enough to be provocation considering the statute and case law. A hand reaching towards the gun? Now we’re talking… Zimmerman should have never been allowed a gun. Any jurisdiction that would give a stalking murderer like that a weapon is ran by dangerously incompetent dickheads. Even taking his own words his judgement his quite poor. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/812 "2012-03-31T01:34:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > A second hand quote from a close relative of the man who shot someone and was likely desperately looking for a self-defense excuse. Color me unimpressed. > > I remain steady in my request for an actual investigation by competent officials. Not just that, but the father has already been caught giving out disinformation. Remember that he released a letter to the media denying that his son had followed Trayvon which was subsequently proven to be false when the 911 tapes were released in which not only does Zimmerman admit to following Martin, but we can hear him running after Martin. Either Zimmerman’s father lied to the media or his son lied to him. In short, he’s not a remotely reliable witness. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/813 "2012-03-31T01:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > …This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something… _First 911 call according to Wiki._ As responsible parents, we need to recognize our duty to teach our kids how not to look like they are on drugs. I would suggest some starting points: For instance, walk “white”. Walk like you have a pickle up your ass. Hold your cheeks as though if the pickle gets out, you die. You don’t have to be utterly arrhythmic, in fact, that might be a give away, trying too hard to be “normal”. A purposeful stride is best, with a simple “Hup! Tup! Trip! Forp!” pattern. Maybe show them videos of young Mormon on their missionary year! If anyone has mastered the art of not looking like you are on drugs, it would be them. Scary as fuck, sure, but not because of drugs. And for Heaven’s sakes, kids, don’t go buying snack garbage at the 7-11 like you got the munchies or something! Dead giveaway, fucking neon sign. An experienced and trained professional neighborhood watch captain will spot that right away! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/814 "2012-03-31T02:19:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > In short, he’s not a remotely reliable witness. Makes you wonder why Zimmerman is letting him go on the media circuit on his behalf, if he’s not accurately representing his statement. If one thing is clear, though, GZ comes from a long line of crazy-talking idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/815 "2012-03-31T02:25:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Makes you wonder why Zimmerman is letting him go on the media circuit on his behalf, if he’s not accurately representing his statement. If one thing is clear, though, GZ comes from a long line of crazy-talking idiots. I love how how, in just about every post you write on this subject, you assume something is true when you have no way of know that that’s the case. In this post, you assume it’s true that Zimmerman has some control over what his father says to the media. I also love how this thread was started in the spirit of making fun of people who pick one side or the other, but that didn’t stop lots of folks from proudly announcing they are on Team Trayvon. Well, I “love” it in the sense of it making me really sad for you guys. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/816 "2012-03-31T02:32:39Z")
> [@newme](#): > > The first officer on scene says in his report > I found a picture of a [PF9 in an inside the waistband holster.](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7425/imag0094w.jpg) > > Martin’s girlfriend does not mention a gun that I can remember. Thanks. So this means if Trayvon saw the weapon and tried to wrestle it away from George (prompting George to fear for his own life in combination with the “you gon’ die now, sucka” threat), it’d probably been unholstered beforehand. Somehow. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/817 "2012-03-31T03:42:03Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I love how how, in just about every post you write on this subject… Stop stalking me, **Rand**. It’s annoying and it makes me feel sorry for you. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/818 "2012-03-31T03:55:56Z")
There you go again with your bad factual characterizations. We’re both posting in the same threads. I’m not stalking you. I love how you stick with your own personal narrative of a situation so closely when you are so demonstrably bad at creating one. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/819 "2012-03-31T04:03:45Z")
Loving the fact that the repeated description of Zimmerman as a “neighborhood watch captain” turned out to be a self-appointment to a made-up position of authority over a non-existent neighborhood watch. This guy couldn’t better fit the profile of a pathetic loser who exercises his own frustrations by trying to gain power over others. Stick the needle in his arm and get done with it already. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881/820 "2012-03-31T04:42:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > …Well, I “love” it in the sense of it making me really sad for you guys. See, right there we’re doing you some good, you’re developing empathy! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-you-team-trayvon-or-team-zimmerman/616881.md?page=42)